Casual Raiding: On DKP
Part III in a series of posts about how my guild was able to take casual raiding from Kara all the way into BT without selling our souls.
Before you get into 25-man raiding, you need to make some important decisions. Things like who will lead the raid and who will main tank are pretty obvious and easy to decide on. The big kicker, and the one that will have the most impact on players, is how loot is awarded.
This is one of the more controversial subjects in the game. Many players don't like it at all and would prefer to trust the dice. Many guilds feel that there is a need to control loot and go by straight council. In a causal raid setting, this is compounded. What you have to decide is how you and your raid team feel loot should be handled out, and find a way to facilitate that.
There are a couple issues with staying away from a dkp system that I'd like to point out. First is that the raid team can be unlucky. That rogue that stepped in because you needed one more DPS? He just picked up a warglaive because he has good dice, and you may never see it again. Obviously this is an extreme example, but it serves it's purpose. Random rolls also provide no sense of advancement for people that don't get loot. Losing a roll tonight doesn't mean your odds improve tomorrow.
Loot council, while somewhat solving the problems above, has just as many pitfalls. First you have to decide a criteria for handing out loot. Do upgrades go to tanks and healers first? Do they go to the person that needs them most? Do they go to people who have raided the longest? And no matter what, someone will get their feelings hurt and see the loot council as a clique playing favorites.
A lot of people also feel a need to have tank/healer priority on drops. Serious progression raiders do this for many reasons, but I've never seen an issue with it. As long as tanks are getting the tank drops, they gear at the same pace as everyone else. No MT priority also keeps you from putting all your eggs in one basket and then getting burned if that person moves on. I'm also lucky enough to have players that understand that tank gearing is important, and tank drops are all discussed and a decision is made among them as to who is getting loot. There are always some contested drops, but there are also a lot of times when loot is passed for the good of the raid.
What my guild decided was that DKP is the way to go. It's the only way to fairly hand out loot over a long period of time. It provides incentives for people to continue raiding. It allows every raider to earn towards an item every night they raid. It stops most loot drama because the rules are set and don't lie. We're lucky enough that we have a good php coder that's an officer, and we wrote our system up from scratch. We found some design pitfalls in The Burning Crusade raiding and have corrected most of them already. There are a couple things not yet decided on, but those are questions of policy and not of the technical side of the system. I'll quote my post explaining how the system works. It's more of a technical post than something easy to read, but it may provide a jumping off point for you. I'm also fairly sure there are some free dkp systems floating around out there if you can't build your own.
Basically a player needs to be at half of our raids to get priority on loot. This promotes attendance but isn't so strict that people are punished if they have to miss a few raids. It also provides a natural three week trial period for anyone that joins. Seperating DKP by raid tier keeps people from building up a ton of DKP in an old tier and others never catching up, and acts as a periodic reset as you progress. This helps any turnover you have, as new people getting in near the reset will be on mostly even ground with older members.
However you decide to handle loot, be consistent and up front about it. In most cases people will be happy for anyone getting loot, unless they feel like they were somehow slighted. If you have any questions about how our DKP system works, let me know. There are some policy issues that I didn't discuss like how alternates can get attendance and/or dkp, how you want to handle people bringing in their alts, etc. I'm a firm proponent of DKP. I just don't think there is another way to fairly handle a limited number of drops.
Before you get into 25-man raiding, you need to make some important decisions. Things like who will lead the raid and who will main tank are pretty obvious and easy to decide on. The big kicker, and the one that will have the most impact on players, is how loot is awarded.
This is one of the more controversial subjects in the game. Many players don't like it at all and would prefer to trust the dice. Many guilds feel that there is a need to control loot and go by straight council. In a causal raid setting, this is compounded. What you have to decide is how you and your raid team feel loot should be handled out, and find a way to facilitate that.
There are a couple issues with staying away from a dkp system that I'd like to point out. First is that the raid team can be unlucky. That rogue that stepped in because you needed one more DPS? He just picked up a warglaive because he has good dice, and you may never see it again. Obviously this is an extreme example, but it serves it's purpose. Random rolls also provide no sense of advancement for people that don't get loot. Losing a roll tonight doesn't mean your odds improve tomorrow.
Loot council, while somewhat solving the problems above, has just as many pitfalls. First you have to decide a criteria for handing out loot. Do upgrades go to tanks and healers first? Do they go to the person that needs them most? Do they go to people who have raided the longest? And no matter what, someone will get their feelings hurt and see the loot council as a clique playing favorites.
A lot of people also feel a need to have tank/healer priority on drops. Serious progression raiders do this for many reasons, but I've never seen an issue with it. As long as tanks are getting the tank drops, they gear at the same pace as everyone else. No MT priority also keeps you from putting all your eggs in one basket and then getting burned if that person moves on. I'm also lucky enough to have players that understand that tank gearing is important, and tank drops are all discussed and a decision is made among them as to who is getting loot. There are always some contested drops, but there are also a lot of times when loot is passed for the good of the raid.
What my guild decided was that DKP is the way to go. It's the only way to fairly hand out loot over a long period of time. It provides incentives for people to continue raiding. It allows every raider to earn towards an item every night they raid. It stops most loot drama because the rules are set and don't lie. We're lucky enough that we have a good php coder that's an officer, and we wrote our system up from scratch. We found some design pitfalls in The Burning Crusade raiding and have corrected most of them already. There are a couple things not yet decided on, but those are questions of policy and not of the technical side of the system. I'll quote my post explaining how the system works. It's more of a technical post than something easy to read, but it may provide a jumping off point for you. I'm also fairly sure there are some free dkp systems floating around out there if you can't build your own.
Quote:
Self Titled will use a home-brewed zero-sum DKP system. All new members will start at zero DKP and zero attendance. All members, including trial members, will be eligible for loot based on this system, and gain/lose DKP as any normal member would. At all times the sum of the entire system will be zero.
DKP cost of an item is arbitrarily set. Most instance drops will cost 20 DKP, while set tokens and final boss loot will cost 1.5x base, or 30 DKP.
Attendance will be based on a rolling six-week time frame. Any players attendance will be that periods player attendance checks for six weeks divided by the total attendance checks for six weeks. Attendance will be taken four times per raid night.
Loot eligibility is determined by a combination of DKP and attendance. All players with attendance over 50% have full eligibility for loot, which will then be determined by overall DKP. Players below 50% will be eligible for loot, but will not have priority over any player with over 50% attendance regardless of DKP standings. This threshold is in place to insure that first time raiders do not come into the system over established players who are in the negative, to promote raid attendance, and thereby progression, as well as to allow for the rewarding of players for attempt nights without causing inflation in the DKP system.
Priority will also follow a need/greed system, where a 'need' is defined as an item that a player needs for their primary raid spec and will cost them DKP. A 'greed' is defined as loot for an off-spec, or loot that will not result in paid DKP.
Loot will be purchased once per slot in a given tier at full value, and all subsequent purchases will be based on a upgrade/downgrade system. An upgrade is defined as moving from the base cost in a slot to the set cost in a slot, and DKP paid will equal the difference between the two values. A downgrade is any loot awarded that results in no paid DKP. That would consist of loot for a slot in which the set cost has already been paid, or a second non-set item for a given slot.
Loot will be handled publicly in raid. The current item will be linked in a raid warning, and all raiders interested in that item will be asked to link what they currently have in that slot. DKP will be addressed by the officers, and the loot awarded based on the above rules. If no one is eligible for the loot as a need, any links that would qualify as greeds will be addressed. If the loot is still not awarded, rolls will be called for that item. All interested players will /random 1000 and loot will be awarded to the winner. Players may not greed roll on an item for their primary spec. Those items either need to be paid, or shown to be an upgrade over gear they currently have for that slot. If the loot is still not awarded, it will be DEd and the materials given to the guild bank.
DKP will be tracked by raid tier. Attendance will cross all tiers of loot, but DKP will stay separate. In the event of a tie in DKP, the previous tier will serve as a tie breaker. If there is no previous tier or a tie still exists, loot will be rolled for. Drops in a tier will only ever effect that tier's DKP.
DKP cost of an item is arbitrarily set. Most instance drops will cost 20 DKP, while set tokens and final boss loot will cost 1.5x base, or 30 DKP.
Attendance will be based on a rolling six-week time frame. Any players attendance will be that periods player attendance checks for six weeks divided by the total attendance checks for six weeks. Attendance will be taken four times per raid night.
Loot eligibility is determined by a combination of DKP and attendance. All players with attendance over 50% have full eligibility for loot, which will then be determined by overall DKP. Players below 50% will be eligible for loot, but will not have priority over any player with over 50% attendance regardless of DKP standings. This threshold is in place to insure that first time raiders do not come into the system over established players who are in the negative, to promote raid attendance, and thereby progression, as well as to allow for the rewarding of players for attempt nights without causing inflation in the DKP system.
Priority will also follow a need/greed system, where a 'need' is defined as an item that a player needs for their primary raid spec and will cost them DKP. A 'greed' is defined as loot for an off-spec, or loot that will not result in paid DKP.
Loot will be purchased once per slot in a given tier at full value, and all subsequent purchases will be based on a upgrade/downgrade system. An upgrade is defined as moving from the base cost in a slot to the set cost in a slot, and DKP paid will equal the difference between the two values. A downgrade is any loot awarded that results in no paid DKP. That would consist of loot for a slot in which the set cost has already been paid, or a second non-set item for a given slot.
Loot will be handled publicly in raid. The current item will be linked in a raid warning, and all raiders interested in that item will be asked to link what they currently have in that slot. DKP will be addressed by the officers, and the loot awarded based on the above rules. If no one is eligible for the loot as a need, any links that would qualify as greeds will be addressed. If the loot is still not awarded, rolls will be called for that item. All interested players will /random 1000 and loot will be awarded to the winner. Players may not greed roll on an item for their primary spec. Those items either need to be paid, or shown to be an upgrade over gear they currently have for that slot. If the loot is still not awarded, it will be DEd and the materials given to the guild bank.
DKP will be tracked by raid tier. Attendance will cross all tiers of loot, but DKP will stay separate. In the event of a tie in DKP, the previous tier will serve as a tie breaker. If there is no previous tier or a tie still exists, loot will be rolled for. Drops in a tier will only ever effect that tier's DKP.
However you decide to handle loot, be consistent and up front about it. In most cases people will be happy for anyone getting loot, unless they feel like they were somehow slighted. If you have any questions about how our DKP system works, let me know. There are some policy issues that I didn't discuss like how alternates can get attendance and/or dkp, how you want to handle people bringing in their alts, etc. I'm a firm proponent of DKP. I just don't think there is another way to fairly handle a limited number of drops.
Total Comments 6
Comments
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I see a couple of things that I don't like with this:
1.) Takes a huge amount of time in raid to get everything posted, etc.
2.) Someone has to manage all of this stuff - just more time out of the raid leader/loot master's life.
3.) So a pug you pick up has no shot at gear?
Things I likey:
1.) People know where they stand.
2.) Reduces arguments over gear.
3.) Set Rules that won't be bent or broken.
4.) Encourages raid attendance(this is my fav.)
I still think just rolling on appropriate gear works better in my particular environment. As we start doing more 25mans though I see this as possibly changing.
I also wanted to mention that I linked your last blog entry into our Guild Forums in The Officer Chat - you are receiving a good bit of oohing and aahing. I did make sure it was known that it was your work. Thanks for these great articles.Posted October 31, 2008 at 12:11 PM by AballahSon
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AballahSon? What do you mean by "So a pug you pick up has no shot at gear?"
Why would a guild pug a player for progression raid?Posted October 31, 2008 at 01:44 PM by Malriah
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Heh, thanks for spreading it around. The more the merrier. To address a couple of your points...
Time in raid getting things posted I assume means maintaining DKP mid-raid. We have a front-end for input that accepts a text list of player names and a dropdown for loot dropped, and it updates automatically. It generally takes about a minute to update a boss kill. Maintenance isn't an issue, just setup. And as I said, I'm lucky enough to have a good php coder who did all the back end. It's up and working and anyone can update DKP with almost no explanation. And as stated, pugs don't generally go on progression raids. If the event one does, they actually have the same shot at look as anyone that doesn't have over 50% attendance.
In the past we have pugged raids, bringing in the last 5 or so members from trade chat. In those situations we've done no dkp raids, and just treated it like a pug with open rolls.Posted October 31, 2008 at 03:26 PM by Kiralyn
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i like this... please go on, i want to know about the rules you use for alts too, as my guild is having problem deciding...Posted October 31, 2008 at 04:01 PM by Diandra
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Any chance you and/or your coder would be willing to share his source code for others to use. This seems like a very good system. I like the fact to you split DKPs between Tiers. That way you don't carry over your DKPs from BWL to get T7 gear.....Posted October 31, 2008 at 04:19 PM by GENocide29
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At current, alt rules are still under discussion, as is DKP/attendance for people not in the raid but on standby. We're still in the design phase for the new system, so not everything is worked out. It also isn't coded yet. I'll talk to the guy coding it and see if he's interested in possibly releasing it at some point.Posted November 01, 2008 at 08:15 PM by Kiralyn
