The Warlocks Den - WoW Warlock Discussions

Hi. I'm Yeldir. Back in the day, I was an enslavement specialist. I remember all the good times and the bad ones, from my first experience with Azrethoc, to the shock the community felt when Blizzard began their campaign of flagging all the really nasty demons as unenslavable. Now, I'm a Warrior. But I'll get to that in a bit.

The height of my career was soul linking Lord Banehollow, sacrificing a voidwalker for mad health regen, banishing him repeatedly every "enslave cycle" as I called it to reset his timer, and, when I wanted to take him outside of Felwood entirely, releasing and tapping him every centimeter of map traveled, hunter kiting style. A pain, but Banehollow-Goes-To-Orgrimmar made that worthwhile. That and soloing whole groups of roving PvPers. Soloing the Wind Rider master and both his wyverns was awesome too. I was quite surprised to learn they have an instant respawn timer. ---Snicker.---

Eventually, it became painfully clear to me that Blizzard did not want enslave seeing widespread use. In retrospect, I don't blame them. Banehollow, and to a lesser extent, Hederines, were totally imba. So I kissed my Warlock goodbye and went Warrior. He *never* got as powerful as my Warlock was, even having gained far superior gear through countless raids. But I didn't have to worry about Blizzard sweeping in and crushing his whole spec and theme. Or so I thought.

See, I'm a 2H Fury Warrior. If you've followed the rage normalization changes with any degree of scrutiny, you'll come to release we're about to see the end of that build. So, I'm sniffing around alternatives in case I find my character neutered. Again. And all these pictures of cool new demons in Outland have got the old enslaver blood boiling again. Hands down my favorite thing to do in WoW. If at all possible, I'd fire up the Warlocky again. Some obstacles in my way, however.

MAKING ENSLAVE DEMON ENSLAVE DEMONS
There are three primary hurdles faced by the aspiring enslaver.

The first and worst is diminishing return timers. This have fluctuated wildly on a patch per patch basis in the past, at some points ceasing to exist at all, at others being overcome through techniques. At this point they are almost as bad as their original and worst incarnation - a very solid diminishment scheme with seemingly no way to overcome it. Builds up after each enslave, rendering a demon more trouble than it's worth after a couple enslavements.

The second is the anti-kiting code. Drag a demon too far from where you found him, and the moment he breaks, he explodes. Sometimes this can be bypassed through hunter style kiting - most of us have seen Kazzak visit Stormwind in person or video.

Now, with all these fascinating new potential temp. pets in Outland, I can't think of anything I'd rather do than go turn the burning legion on itself, and my opposing faction of choice! With all these new demons and abilities, I can't help but think, opportunity. Perhaps a little bit foolishly - every time I or another Warlock found a way around one hurdle, a patch later it would be quietly fixed, with no reference in the patch notes.

Let's brainstorm ideas to make enslave demons enslaved again. We'll start with what we know about the obstacles presented here.

THE DIMINISHING RETURNS TIMER (PROBABLY NOT ACTUALLY A TIMER):
[EDIT (11/25/06 1:12 AM): Did some testing tonight with a friend. I feel I can safely rule out hate lists as a mechanic in this. We tried tap-trading, logging out, the whole bit, and the demon retained his diminished enslavement effectiveness. A timer also seems unlikely - I don't think the diminishing returns effect is a timer at *all*, now. The effect is almost certainly a constant one until the demon leaves combat, or does a "true reset". So I'm left with the task of causing a demon to leave combat without running home or bugging out, or at the very least interfering with the present mechanic. Prospects grim. If anyone has any ideas, I'm all over it. Now if only you could polymorph demons.]

TRIED AND FAILED:
Repeated banish. Broken long ago, anyway.
Repeated fearing. Some demons are immune also.
Leaving combat with your demon attacking/cc'ed a party member by running off. Returning to try to re-enslave after a short/moderate wait.
Logging out with your demon attacking/cc'ed by a party member. Logging back in and trying to re-enslave after a short/moderate wait.
Leaving combat and logging out with your demon attacking a non-party member. Came back to a greyed out demon - banished it, other player left the scene, demon turned red to me again and attempted to re-enslave after a short/moderate wait. No dice.

YET TO TRY:
Leaving combat with demon attacking an NPC, returning after a wait, before the npc dies, and putting yourself back on the demon's hate list.
Dying with demon attacking a party member/non partied player/npc, returning after a wait to re-enslave.
Excluding the use of banish/fear entirely. Possible timer reset/reinforce to diminishment mechanic.
Banish kiting to other zones in attempt to confuse/interfere with diminishment mechanic.
Enslave trading with one or more Warlocks.
Extremely long wait periods. If timer exists, could be much longer than I anticipated.
Variant of fixed mind control bug in attempt to confuse/interfere with diminishment mechanic.
Catching the demon in a hunter's freezing trap in an attempt to confuse/intefere with diminishment mechanic. Hunter should feign death so no one is in combat with the demon. Demon must be placed back in combat before trap breaks or failure will result.
(More to come as we think of them.)

Additional Notes:
Seems to be attached to the demon, not the Warlock. As in, another Warlock cannot take your enslave and expect to use it after it is uncontrollably diminished. (UNVERIFIED AS OF 1.12+)
Does not appear to reset while loose and attacking/chasing the Warlock over a long period of time. (UNVERIFIED AS OF 1.12+)
Must find some way to force the reset without returning the demon to its point of origin.
Banish is out. Is there a form of CC that drops the demon from combat?

I think this can be beaten by finding things that would interfere with the timer, if this is a timer at all. Timer testing of extreme lengths (15+ minute waits) to be done later. Establishing exactly how it functions would go a long way towards that.

Another possibility, probably even more likely than a hate related timer "hidden" buff, is the timer being related to the demon remaining in combat. Is there some strange way to take the demon out of combat without causing it to run home?

Finally, are there items such as trinkets or consumables that alter enslavements or mob pathing/AI in any way or form pertinent to this project? They might be useful. Let's try to think of some.

ANTI KITING CODE:
[Edit (11/25/06 1:12 AM): Encountered no trouble banish kiting a world demon. I expect you could take one anywhere with this method. This is positive news, as it means you could drag a demon from one place to a desired grinding, quest or PvP spot, and once at your destination, start enslavements to use until the diminishment kicked in. Mission accomplished.]

Means of surmounting this already seem in place. In theory, all one needs to do is ensure the demon is not taken a certain distance while enslaved. Hunter style kiting, perhaps even BY a hunter, to the desired location of enslavement may work. An alternative where this is not feasible is to release it, slap it in the face, let it slap you, re-enslave and go, repeatedly during travel. Employing dots can help, but nothing keeps a monster pissed like a good wanding every ten steps or so.

This latter trick worked wonderfully for myself and many others, back in the day, but is non-functional when every pit stop made reduces the time you can enjoy/abuse your new demon. If the timer can be beaten, kiting should not pose a problem.

THE FINAL HURDLE: SECRECY
In the case of success, unfortunately, the most counterproductive thing you could do is share the fact that you succeeded. Sharing how you did it is even worse. Blizzard has made it very clear that they do not want a Warlock taking a demon from its point of origin and employing it.

Therefore, in the case of success, I or any Warlock who succeeded and wishes to share, but at the same time knows they should not, should allude to this indirectly, and let interested Warlocks of character seemingly fit to keep secrets to seek out the Warlock in question who left the hint or clue, and in turn be judged as either fit to keep the secret or unfit to keep the secret accordingly, so that the enslavement of demons remains viable when done quietly and away from prying eyes, in a really shady Warlocky fashion. I succeeded once, alone, with nothing but my own cleverness. It was to my surprise when I found other Warlocks knew the same and similar tricks. I may succeed again. Keep an eye out.

Closing notes/questions:
Anyone have any additional information or experiences they'd like to share that might help me beat the machine? Maybe we could get together on the PTR and try some of these ideas out? For now, I'm going to try and seek out the hunter on Cenarion Circle who was nefarious for his kiting tricks. He might have some information pertaining to monster combat/kiting rules that could help. If anyone here is familiar with that stuff, please share.

Oh. And if anyone already HAS a working setup, and they consider it a trade secret... Well, I kept in in the old days, and I'd keep it again. PM me. >)

November 27, 2006, 05:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
Yeldir	Re: Enslave Demon workshop I can't edit my own posts anymore. Seems like there's a timer on that, but that's okay. Looks like this is going to turn into a journal more than anything else. I discovered something that may prove crucial in my search - the real nature and function of the diminishing returns timer. The enemy has a face, and a name: http://www.thottbot.com/?sp=20785 Interesting details. Stacks up to 15 times. It's a mechanic not just used by enslave, but other similar spells or monster abilities, too. And it seems like it has a timer after all - 30 minutes, if thottbot is correct. It isn't always! I'm going to do some more reading, and see what else I can dig up from other sources of mined data. In theory, one could banish a demon that grew out of control for thirty minutes, and expect to get another use out of it. That's if Thottbot is correct. Thirty minutes of banishing isn't really a feasible tactic in any situation I can think of, lol. Still, food for thought... I'll give it a try later. I noticed that the school to the charm tolerance effect is physical. That gave me a kooky idea - what if I put a Paladin's blessing of protection on the demon directly before dismissing him, then re-enslaving him with the blessing of protection still active? Blessing of protection renders targets immune to physical school effects, and removes most (if not all) of them, also. The result was that when I dismissed the demon with the BoP effect still on it, it ran around in crazy circles because it was unable to attack. The AI was behaving most erratically. I was sure to re-enslave the demon with BoP still in effect, but besides the amusing antics, this had no noticable effect. If the timer is a physical school effect at all, it's not affected by BoP - at least not in any way I was able to make use of. I'll try testing the thirty minute duration next. [EDIT (11/27/06 8:17 AM): Yep. This Thottbot duration data seems legitmate all right. I enslaved a Felbeast in the blasted lands repeatedly, until he resisted all other enslave attempts. Then I kited him up on a hill, demo sacced a voidwalker, giving me more health regen then he has dps, and trolled the WoW forums for half an hour. Came back, enslaved him, got a full five minutes. Did it again after that. The system has been beaten, technically. Well, knowledge is power, and armed with this new information I go back to the drawing boards. Last edited by Yeldir; November 27, 2006 at 08:17 AM..

November 27, 2006, 10:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
grishnak Character Info Grishnak 70 Orc Warlock Sargeras Euro PvP Guild: Mélancolie Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 26/35/0	Re: Enslave Demon workshop That's a pretty interesting analysis I remember that feeling when i first enslaved Azrethoc, that feeling of unlimited power, slaughtering "normal" mobs and allys aside ! Still when I was farming my living essences I enjoyed grabbing an infernal to farm those treants... The restriction they put on named demons really made me unhappy, but on the other side, I think it is needed because those named are also used for quests. If someone's having fun with banehollow, how is a poor warlock going to validate his quest for dreadsteed ? That's a pretty wicked example but I think you get the point. Same with azertoc which is if my memories are good, a quest mob. For now I think blizzard is just implementing limits to the spell to keep it as a crowd control in dungeons, and a limited means of having fun outdoors. The dilemna is : Either keep it as it is, with the possibility of enslaving powerful mobs but not long enough, either make it a real "second pet" opportunity, much more risky but manageable. In that case I think they would really limit the spectrum of enslavable mobs because it would make us way too powerful.. As with many "imba" warlock abilities, it's the fact they're imba that makes them not fitting perfectly in the whole "game balance"

November 28, 2006, 07:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
Yeldir	Re: Enslave Demon workshop Yes. Once again, Blizzard has made it quite clear what they think of enslave demon. Do I blame them? Not really. From a perspective of balance, it is totally unacceptable for a Warlock, already an exceptionally powerful class as is, to control a demon twice as powerful as the Warlock! With what I have now, I could take any enslavable demon any place I wanted as long as I didn't have to zone. But the time and effort involved in negotiating a safe kiting path hunter-style, and the fact that I would have to sit there banishing my demon for THIRTY MINUTES once it grew out of control in order to bring it back under, renders stunts like this non-functional except for showing off. Perhaps I'll take Kirith the Damned to Stormwind some weekend when I have a good deal of free time on my hands, just to see folks freak out. But the addiction is still in me, and so I continue. Having thought about my latest tests, I think my next step will be to try and find abilities, effects and items that alter monster behavior and debuff/buff effects. There are still holes in the system, as far as my experiments have shown. It's definitely a status effect, and the timer is definitely thirty minutes. Whether or not it is truly physical, or even truly of a school at all is still something I'm still trying to muddle out. Last edited by Yeldir; November 28, 2006 at 07:22 PM..

November 28, 2006, 08:08 PM	#4 (permalink)
Zazier Character Info Zazier 60 Human Warlock Gilneas US PvE Guild: The New Rule Order Profile: CTProfile Talent Spec: 43/8/0	Re: Enslave Demon workshop Nice post there! I like the analysis. Keep it up!

November 28, 2006, 08:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
Genocide Character Info Umbrix 70 Undead Warlock Blackwing Lair US PvP Guild: Death Sentence Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/21	Re: Enslave Demon workshop You need to make a running list of skills that enslaved demons have and where. Felguards in Felwood have one that knocks their opponent down, and i know Lord Azrethoc has Mortal Strike, which is handy Anyway, keep up the awesome work!!!! __________________ ...i'll think of it...

November 29, 2006, 12:40 PM	#6 (permalink)
Yeldir	Re: Enslave Demon workshop There was at one point a project on this site to make a catalogue of the world demons, what could be enslaved, what couldn't, and what powers each one had. The guy who was going to do it, as Akasha tells me, kinda' disappeared. A good idea, but at the moment I simply don't have time.

December 05, 2006, 06:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Capric	Re: Enslave Demon workshop Hm. If this is how diminishing returns work, then intuition says you should have +4% hit (maybe only +3) to hit to get maximum enslave length the first enslave, +14% for second enslave, +24% for third enslave, and +34% for fourth. Improved Enslave gives you +10% to hit on enslave demon, and Nat Pagle's Broken Reel gives you a temporary +10% to hit on all spells (short cooldown). That means if you can accumulate +14% to hit for regular gear, you should be able to fairly reliably enslave a demon 4 times. Hm... +4% for Bloodvine set, +1 for Ban'Thok Sash, +1 for Diana's necklace, +1 for Soul Harvester, +1 for the turban off drakk, +1 for deathmist gloves. That's +9 that's relatively easy to get. +3 for ZG ring set, +1 for Abyssal cloth shoulders of sorcery... those aren't too bad. +13 total +1 for rockfury bracers would give you +14% hit to spells... Hm. I need to start gathering my enslavement suit =D

December 08, 2006, 06:31 AM	#8 (permalink)
Yeldir	Re: Enslave Demon workshop ... Heyo! That's a damn good idea! I never considered it at that angle before. Let's get some reels and give it a shot, then report back our findings.

December 12, 2006, 12:37 PM	#9 (permalink)
Yeldir	Re: Enslave Demon workshop I had another thought. However, as of now I am unable to test this, as I simply don't have access to this tier of gear. But, has anyone considered the uses of items that reduce the resistances of your targets to magical spells and effects? Consider just how massive a bonus enslave demon recieves from curse of shadows. It is not unreasonable to say the resistance and diminishment mechanic may check the current shadow resist of the demon being enslaved to determine whether it is resisted outright, and how long it lasts. And in support of the +hit to spells theory, consider just how quickly demons above your level break. It is likely that this is a factor as well. So, in theory, stacking items that reduce the resistances of your target and items that increase your chance to hit with spells should drastically increase the average enslave lengths, even after diminishment sets in. Ladies and gentlemen, I think we may be seeing a new era opening up before us. If any passing Warlocks have an extensive set of the gear I mentioned already, PLEASE CONTACT ME. With your help, I think we might discover something awesome - and something contained within the rules Blizzard intentionally set out. Edit: Thinking about this further, I am seriously questioning if curse of shadows works as I thought it did. Supposedly the resistance reduction mechanic is what causes enslave demon to perform better. Yet, supposedly one cannot take spell resistances below 0, now. So how is curse of shadows affecting the enslave time? I'm going to have to keep researching this one. The first thing I can think of is all demons having an innate shadow resistance, which is actually pretty likely. If this is the cause, then perhaps stacking -resistance gear won't help after all. All the same, I could really use the cooperation of someone decked out in this type of gear. Last edited by Yeldir; December 12, 2006 at 01:00 PM..