| Discussion Threads Every now and then you get a really good, informative thread. Or, there are topics that are questioned every week. In here you will find posts made on this forum that members find useful - moved here for easy finding. |
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May 05, 2008, 08:46 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Jimmykins 70 Gnome Warlock Chromaggus US PvP Guild: The Insurrection Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Haste and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Ok, so using the spreadsheet, I would get higher dps replacing my crit gems with haste gems. However, I'm not sure whether thats actually the right choice. I'm worried that my lag will remove any benefit of the haste and thinking that I should either go with straight damage or damge/crit gems. My gear plan as of now is to grab Solarian's wand and the boots of blasting pattern, then stick 12dams in any socket where I don't care about the set bonus and 5haste/6dams in yellow sockets with the 2dam bonus. It works out at 6 crimson spinels and 6 reckless pyrestones. Obviously I don't want to have 6 pyrestones cut then realize the crit would be better. Hehe. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks, Jimmykins. P.S Here's my armory http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...us&n=Jimmykins the trinkets I use are darkmoon card: crusade and Icon. Planning to use Quag's eye too whenever it decides to drop lol |
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May 05, 2008, 09:56 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Banatu 80 Blood Elf Rogue Kel'Thuzad US PvP Guild: Massacre Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/5/25 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
It honestly would depend on your lag. If you're running like 700ms in a 25 man raid, don't stack haste. 400ms and lower is fine though, I definitely notice the difference between 0% and 5% haste even running 20 fps/400ms latency in BT.
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I'd mana tap that. |
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May 05, 2008, 10:35 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Jimmykins 70 Gnome Warlock Chromaggus US PvP Guild: The Insurrection Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Ah ok, I'm generally at 270ms. Guess i should have said that in the original post. I definatly notice a difference when I play at my friend's house, I usually run 70-120ms while there. I guess I'll go for haste then. |
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May 05, 2008, 11:24 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Banatu 80 Blood Elf Rogue Kel'Thuzad US PvP Guild: Massacre Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/5/25 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Thing is, 1% crit and 1% haste are the same dps upgrade. It just takes a lot more crit to get that 1% than it does haste.
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I'd mana tap that. |
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May 06, 2008, 12:38 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Løk 70 Gnome Warlock Burning Steppes Euro PvP Guild: Tribal Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/1/19 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Haha amusing. I came here looking for some of canadian pimps spreadsheat data to see if it coincided with what I've found out, and then I see this... You got some of the same problem as I do. Earlier I've been thinking reckless pyrestones is the way to go, because the extra casting speed would give you better mobility equals more efficient fighting. And from here and out, I'm assuming that your hit capped, and standard 0/21/40 dest spec. Thing is when choosing between crit rating and spell haste rating, is the way they deal extra damage. According to my spreadsheets, with my gear, 1 crit rating will add 0,83 dps, and 1 haste will give 0,84 dps, (1 spell damage will add 0,74). So since we can assume 0,01 dps is negliable it wouldnt mather which stat you choose. But they add dps differently. 1 Crit rating adds dps by making you do bigger hits more often. 1 Haste rating adds dps by making you able to toss more shadowbolts in a minute then you would without. Bonus: More mobility. Now for some personal theocrafting  Can you tell the difference?Ok thing is: When you add extra spellhaste and stack that stat, even tho you add about the same dps as you would by adding crit, you will burn through your mana pool a lot faster with spell haste then you would with crit! So even tho I used to think that extra mobility would make spell haste = win. I was wrong. Not all wrong, but still wrong. Spell haste makes you less mana efficient. But what I am going to do personally, is using spellhaste gems on my heroics/trash clearing gear, Reckless Pyrestones boyaa. On trash clearing and boss fights in heroics mana aint that much of an issue so mobility is the winner here. But on my boss gear I would prefer +12 Spelldmg gems where I dont care about the set bonus, and Potent Pyrestones where there's a yellow slot. Same damage, better mana efficiency. PS: I got about 98 spell haste from gear, 2,35 cast shadowbolts is pretty sweet. PS2: Yes I got two different pve sets, 3 actually, tho they only have small differences. 1 for heroics/trash/kara, 1 for raid bosses, 1 for za. Tho the difference is just a few items exchanged, since there's no point in having 202 hit rating on trash, and there's no point using the darkmoon card when things die before you can stack it. PS3: Sorry for making the answer so long when I could have said it in a few short sentences. I like giving a full explanation when I can The World of Warcraft Armory That be me. |
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May 06, 2008, 02:20 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Jimmykins 70 Gnome Warlock Chromaggus US PvP Guild: The Insurrection Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
So it seems that neither choice would be bad.. mobility, or mana. The way i planned my gear i'd only have around 80 haste (about 5%). Think it's worth it or should I wait for gear with haste on it to start gemming for haste? I'd get about another 1.5% crit with crit gems but go down to about 30haste. Hm.. maybe I should roll dice? 
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May 06, 2008, 03:55 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Banatu 80 Blood Elf Rogue Kel'Thuzad US PvP Guild: Massacre Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/5/25 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Don't gem crit.. ever. It's quite possibly the worst gem to be using, unless for some reason you're gemming mp5 or spirit. Go hit/haste/spell damage. The item budget of an 8 crit rating gem just doesn't pan out to a good dps increase.
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I'd mana tap that. |
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May 06, 2008, 11:49 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Løk 70 Gnome Warlock Burning Steppes Euro PvP Guild: Tribal Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/1/19 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
@Jimmy Hehe yeah rolling the dice seems like a good way to go But if you aint doing bosses that last more then 5 mins regulary then you might as well go with haste. But if you can get into a decent group that are able to tackle 3 chests, then I'd take some of the spell haste items there instead of socketing, that is if 80 spell haste is your goal.Oh and at the % argument. According to Leulier it's not 1% that adds about the same percent, it's 1 rating. So how many percent you get out of e.g. 50 haste or crit rating has nothing to say, the dps increase will be the same. @Cynic Why on god's green earth would you say that? And it was never talk about rare gems, were talking about socketing with epics from when phase 4 is complete. And no I wouldnt take the +10 Crit rating gem either. It's about the choice between haste, Reckless Pyrestones (+5 Haste, +6 Spell damage), and Potent Pyrestones (+5 Crit rating, +6 Spell damage), Pyrestones are Red and Yellow socket. So these are for the yellow sockets where you care about the set bonus. Runed Crimson Spinels for the rest. And there is no Crit and spirit gems, there are however, Crit and mp5 gems, Crit and Penetration, and hit and mp5, for yellow and blue sockets, which can be nice to fill those blue spots with something different then Glowing Nighteyes. And it can probably be discussed that gemming crit as the second stat to hit, to get the 25% for "constant" iSB buff to be up, is better then spell damage. Tho Crit is random so you can never guarantee that it will be up anyways. And please: If you make a statement follow it up with constructive arguments. Dont just say "It is so, because I say so, because I read it somewhere, and the guy sounded smart." And you might be aware of this and just about to change gear so resocketing would be pointless. But you only need 202 Spell Hit rating. Stacking above that is a waste. [Edit:] If your group can do 3 chests, you pretty damn certain can take on the rest of za. Changed that sentence. Last edited by Løk; May 06, 2008 at 11:52 AM.. |
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May 06, 2008, 12:57 PM
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#9 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Moriban 70 Undead Warlock undermine US PvE Guild: Relentless Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: pi*R^2 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Quote:
a few numbers I have used (all assume 202 hit and a 0/21/40 build with all of the raid buffs available)... 1k damage 27% crit and 5% haste = 1456.88 dps 25% crit and 7% haste = 1455.33 dps 27% crit and 0% haste = 1400.75 dps 25% crit and 2% haste = 1400.33 dps 1200 damage 27% crit and 5% haste = 1642.12 dps 25% crit and 7% haste = 1640.64 dps 27% crit and 0% haste = 1577.72 dps 25% crit and 2% haste = 1577.54 dps 1400 damage 27% crit and 5% haste = 1827.69 dps 25% crit and 7% haste = 1826.30 dps 27% crit and 0% haste = 1754.97 dps 25% crit and 2% haste = 1755.04 dps |
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May 06, 2008, 02:19 PM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Løk 70 Gnome Warlock Burning Steppes Euro PvP Guild: Tribal Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 41/1/19 |
Re: Hatse and Crit: TheoryCraft vs Real Raid Situations
Ah now that's constructive! I like it. And the basis I use to say it's 1 rating is derived directly from the spreadsheat. The way you modell the stats leads me to belive you got the old version of the spreadsheat? In version 2.3 and 2.4 you can plot in the gear and the gems you have manually, and then add whatever rating you'd like at the bottom (row 69) to see the different effect stats add. So after you've plotted some gear (no mather what it is, might as well use the builds that are allready there) in the "Gear_Buffs" tab, you can go back to the "DPS" tab, scroll down to rows 37-47. There you will find how much dps 1 extra of each stat will add. According to wowwiki, you need 15,7 Spell haste rating to get 1% extra haste, and you need 22,1 Spell crit rating to get 1% extra crit. That's my basis for saying you dont get the same amount from 1% of each stat, but from 1 rating. Worth noticing: 1. My calculations are based on my gear, with no buffs other then I use myself, everywhere I go, so that's with CoS, Superior Wizard Oil and +24 spell damage food buff. At different levels these stats scale a little differently, but the differences are so small with 250 crit rating and 98 haste that I simplify it by assumin they are equal. 2. The more you add of one stat, the more attractive the other becomes! If I was into it I could probably calculate the correlation, but it seems that putting all your money on one of the stats aint the optimal choice. The exact breaking points has yet to be calculated. And I like your numbers. After looking at em for some time, and double checking with my Leulier, one conclusion stands out. The more spell damage you add, the more value each of the other stats add (well duh...). Hehe. Anyways the differences between what's most valuable in your calculations at different levels of spell damage, is caused by the breaking point between what pays of the most of spell haste and crit rating, is getting moved about. At low spell damage it seems to favor crit, at high spell damage it seems to favor haste. One rule of tumb, based on qualified guessing, assuming hit capped, dest specced, and not caring about mana efficiency: You want about 1 spell haste rating for every 2-2,5 spell crit rating. [Edit:] " One completely unbased rule of tumb, based on qualified guessing," is a pretty retarded sentence. Fixed. Last edited by Løk; May 06, 2008 at 02:25 PM.. |
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| Crit, Haste, Raid, real, situations, Spell Crit, Spell Haste, theorycraft |
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