In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed? - Page 4 - The Warlocks Den

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Discussion Threads Every now and then you get a really good, informative thread. Or, there are topics that are questioned every week. In here you will find posts made on this forum that members find useful - moved here for easy finding.

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January 18, 2009, 11:40 PM

#31 (permalink)

mcgee84

Character Info
Seton
Human Warlock
Arygos US PvE
Talent Spec: 53/13/0

Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdubaldo

Hello,

Excellent guide except for the fact that I believe that hit% does not impact crit% in any way, directly or indirectly. Unless Blizzard changed the game mechanics with Wrath of the Lich King, we're still looking at a single roll system due to system constraints (rolling for hit/miss and then rolling for crit/non crit would take up too much time machine).

I don't think this is true for spells. It is for melee, but not spells. Unless everything else I've read on the subject is wrong.

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January 19, 2009, 12:47 AM

#32 (permalink)

Rutiene

Character Info
Luxury
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Deathwing US PvP
Guild: Addiction
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 54/0/17

Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by cdubaldo

Excellent guide except for the fact that I believe that hit% does not impact crit% in any way, directly or indirectly. Unless Blizzard changed the game mechanics with Wrath of the Lich King, we're still looking at a single roll system due to system constraints (rolling for hit/miss and then rolling for crit/non crit would take up too much time machine).

Physical crit does work that way, but spell crit is on a two roll system. So essentially, if you have a 80% hit chance and a 33.3% crit chance, you actually have a 26.4% overall crit chance.

And no, its not been changed for Wrath of the Lich King. It was this way in BC as well. I didn't play in Vanilla WoW though.

May 05, 2009, 07:18 PM	#33 (permalink)
Bap10c4 Character Info Helixir 80 Human Warlock Suramar US PvE Guild: FEG Profile: WoW Rankings Talent Spec: 0/41/30	Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed? I see a lot of posts about the hit/crit relation, and I think in some cases we just don't realize that we are in fact agreeing. I think it was explained right, with a little arithmetic, early on in this thread. Hit affects crit only because below cap less +hit = fewer hits, and fewer hits = fewer potential crits. It doesn't alter your crit rating or probability (%), as far as I know.

May 05, 2009, 08:01 PM	#34 (permalink)
Tymz Character Info Synthetic 80 Human Warlock Greymane US PvE Guild: Red October Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/13/55	Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed? Hit is Hit until you reach cap. You can't put a number on Hit vs SP unless you go spell by spell. WoWWiki - Spell Coefficients. So for Haunt it says 47.93%. 100sp = 47.93 more damage. What is worth more, having a hit (at hit cap) for X-47.93, or hitting most of the time, but not all the time, at X+47.93? Personally, I carry enough gear to swap out to hit cap, but only for raid bosses. It is a waste of stats on other content. Edit: I'll see if I can track down the iLvl values and get better numbers going. Edit again: Please someone check my math. Ignoring Talents: Base spell hit: 83% Base damage for Haunt: 645 to 753 1.5sec cast, we'll use top end for calculations SP Coefficient: 47.93% 1% hit = 26.232 1% haste = 32.79 As is, this is (7530.83)/1.5 = 416.66 dps With 10 spell power, this is ((753+(100.4793))0.83)/1.5 = 419.32 dps With 10 hit, this is (753(0.83+(10/26.232/100)))/1.5 = 418.57 dps With 10 haste, this is (7530.83)/(1.5/(1+((10/32.79)/100))) = 417.93 dps Note: Can someone check my math? If its right looks like 10 SP>10 Hit>10 Haste, which is different then I thought. A2=Base Damage B2=Time C2=Coefficient D2=SP E2=Hit F2=Haste Copy to/from excel to make for easy calculations =((A2+(C2D2))(0.83+(E2/26.232/100)))/(B2/(1+((F2/32.79)/100))) Last edited by Tymz; May 05, 2009 at 09:56 PM..*

May 06, 2009, 05:14 AM

#35 (permalink)

Trizone

Character Info
Andrèas
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Magtheridon US PvP
Guild: Unity
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tymz

Hit is Hit until you reach cap. You can't put a number on Hit vs SP unless you go spell by spell. WoWWiki - Spell Coefficients.

So for Haunt it says 47.93%. 100sp = 47.93 more damage. What is worth more, having a hit (at hit cap) for X-47.93, or hitting most of the time, but not all the time, at X+47.93?

Personally, I carry enough gear to swap out to hit cap, but only for raid bosses. It is a waste of stats on other content.

Edit: I'll see if I can track down the iLvl values and get better numbers going.
Edit again: Please someone check my math.

Ignoring Talents:
Base spell hit: 83%
Base damage for Haunt: 645 to 753 1.5sec cast, we'll use top end for calculations
SP Coefficient: 47.93%
1% hit = 26.232
1% haste = 32.79

As is, this is (753*0.83)/1.5 = 416.66 dps
With 10 spell power, this is ((753+(10*0.4793))*0.83)/1.5 = 419.32 dps
With 10 hit, this is (753*(0.83+(10/26.232/100)))/1.5 = 418.57 dps
With 10 haste, this is (753*0.83)/(1.5/(1+((10/32.79)/100))) = 417.93 dps

Note: Can someone check my math? If its right looks like 10 SP>10 Hit>10 Haste, which is different then I thought.
A2=Base Damage
B2=Time
C2=Coefficient
D2=SP
E2=Hit
F2=Haste
Copy to/from excel to make for easy calculations
=((A2+(C2*D2))*(0.83+(E2/26.232/100)))/(B2/(1+((F2/32.79)/100)))

At 0 spell power that might indeed be correct, but if you instead use 2k spell power (which is more realistic):

With 10 spell power, this is

((753+(2010*0.4793))*0.83)/1.5 = 949.74 dpet

With 10 hit, this is
(753+(2000*0.4793))*(0.83+(10/26.232/100)))/1.5 = 951.44dpet

With 10 haste, this is
(753+(2000*0.4793))*0.83/(1.5/(1+((10/32.79)/100))) = 949.97 dpet

Though with proper gem scaling (1 haste/hit = 1.1875 spell power)

Adding 11.875 spell power at 2k spell power gives:

((753+(2011.875*0.4793))*0.83)/1.5 = 950.23 dpet

I prefer the use the term damage per execute time (dpet) since dps is a bit misleading. In any case, one can see that at 2k spell power it is indeed better to gem for hit than spell power, which in turn is better than haste. The reason haste appears to be so good here is because you're only looking at a single cast-bar spell. The only thing haste ever does is make room for more filler spells, and for affliction shadow bolt and haunt both have a way lower dpet than the dots. This also coincides with how good Leulier's spreadsheet shows haste to be for FG/emberstorm builds where most their damage comes from spamming incinerate and hence haste becomes almost as good as spell power in such a build.

The other thing about hit is that missing spells can mess up your play quite alot; missing on things like immolate and unstable affliction can go unnoticed and as such resulting in a major DPS loss. Risking to miss on spells is just another things to keep on your mind, and really, you probably have more important issues to spend your concentration on

May 06, 2009, 08:23 AM	#36 (permalink)
SINisterW Status: Darkbinder Character Info Aily 80 Human Warlock Doomhammer US PvE Guild: Arisen Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/1/17	Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed? 3k SP is worthless when that spell misses...

May 06, 2009, 11:51 AM	#37 (permalink)
Tymz Character Info Synthetic 80 Human Warlock Greymane US PvE Guild: Red October Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/13/55	Re: In some situations should Hit rating be sacrificed? Ya, I guess I should have tried scaling up. I chose haunt because it had a low coefficient. I'm going to run some numbers based at 1800sp + X stats. We'll see if hit still wins. As for SinisterW's comment, you are absolutely right. Thats the only reason theorycrafting sucks, cause it can be misleading. Edit: Well, it was annoying, but here is how to calculate how much spell power you need per hit. It is not constant for every spell, and changes with the amount of Spell Power you already have. (Spell Power0.000459)+SP/Hit Offset=Spell Power needed per hit You should be able to use the formula from my last post (I changed mine to cap hit, but it needs another column) to test it out. SP/Hit Offset: Haunt: 0.7216 Deathcoil: 1.6955 Immolate Direct Damage: 1.0563 Incinerate: 0.4349 Searing Pain: 0.4333 Seed of Corruption Direct Damage: 4.0924 Shadow Bolt: 0.4127 Shadowburn: 0.9254 Shadowfury: 2.7386 Soul Fire: 0.6618 Chaos Bolt: 1.1664 Unstable Affliction (Dispell): 0.5282 As an example: Shadow Bolt at 1800 Spell Damage needs an additional (18000.000459)+0.4127=1.2389 Spell Damage to match 1 hit. +/- for rounding errors. Plugged into the formula from the last post: Base: ((770+(0.85691800))(0.83+(0/26.232/100)))/(3.0/(1+((0/32.79)/100)))=639.7695 +1.2389 SP Boost: ((770+(0.85691801.2389))(0.83+(0/26.232/100)))/(3.0/(1+((0/32.79)/100)))=640.0632 +1 Hit Boost:((770+(0.85691800))(0.83+(1/26.232/100)))/(3.0/(1+((0/32.79)/100)))=640.0634 Last edited by Tymz; May 06, 2009 at 08:20 PM..

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