| Understanding our Stats Gear is more than just covering our privates, it's the stats that make it so important. If you want to understand more about what Warlocks go for, have a look at the information posts inside! |
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March 30, 2008, 12:28 AM
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Spell haste vs crits
I'm not much of a raider due playing mornings on a very quiet server, but I've noticed that the high end gear seems to be forcing a choice between spell haste and crits. I get the feeling that Blizzard is trying to reduce long term dps by forcing people to use mana faster rather then boosting damage done with it with the new gear. My question for the more experienced locks is whether the trade off in faster damage (but more mana intensive) is really worth it when you factor in... |
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July 11, 2008, 12:36 PM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Re: Haste vs. Crit
I'd go along with that - 30% raidbuffed at a minimum is what I like to shoot for. Another point to make is that while the spreadsheet at WoW Warlock DPS Spreadsheet is fantastic for planning gear upgrades it doesn't take everything into account. The Crit vs haste debate is one area where the spreadsheet is slightly out as it overvalues Haste.
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Lefric - 80 Rogue Theleb - 70 Warlock Celegorm - 70 Hunter Kahlye - 70 Shaman - Gaerun 62 Paladin - Weldrake 80 Death Knight |
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July 11, 2008, 01:04 PM
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#11 (permalink) |
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Re: Haste vs. Crit
I'll quote Buzzkill of Nihilum: "No, no and no, you shouldn't go haste before Sunwell. ZA haste items are apart from the ring utter shit and should be avoided by all cost. Only preSW items you should consider that have haste on it are nimble thought, bt trash ring, za haste ring and illidan staff. You're way better off with crit and damage setup before you hit good Sunwell items." MaxDPS and the spreadsheet are confusing a lot of people because they value the stat very highly (as they should, haste is awesome). The PROBLEM is that pre-sunwell your gear is too crappy to support haste itemization and the drops you can get with haste also suck except for the one's Buzzkill mentioned. |
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July 11, 2008, 01:11 PM
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#12 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Voidnull 70 Undead Warlock Gorgonnash Euro PvP Guild: unleash Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
omg buzzkill might be a good warlock, but has proven to be a not so decent theorycrafter. crit is the last stat you should actually aim for. speaking about 3o% spellcrit, if you have a look at my armory youŽll see that in my gear you are around 30% sboltcrit raidbuffed. Haste scales alot better than crit does and in terms of iLvL it is even cheaper than crit. |
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July 11, 2008, 01:20 PM
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#13 (permalink) |
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Re: Haste vs. Crit
The Neck and the Sword from Zul'Jin are also highly rated.... Yep, he's got a lot of crit (around 26% unbuffed without Devastation) and a heap of damage but while I respect his accomplishments I'd have to say that haste items aren't quite as horrific as he makes them out to be - you simply had to apply a modicum of common sense to your choices.
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Lefric - 80 Rogue Theleb - 70 Warlock Celegorm - 70 Hunter Kahlye - 70 Shaman - Gaerun 62 Paladin - Weldrake 80 Death Knight |
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July 11, 2008, 01:31 PM
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#14 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Roktereth 70 Human Warlock Gorgonnash US PvP Guild: Rise of the Darkside Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
Ok so I'm getting two different sides here...I guess what I'm asking is should I hang onto my mantle of nimble thought, my pvp haste neckpiece, and my dagger (I know I'll be replacing that eventually) and leave the haste where it is now? Or should I keep going for good items with haste like the bracers of nimble thought, etc.? One thing I would never do is sacrifice spell damage for haste, unless its a HUGE amount of haste and a very small amount of spell damage. So I'm not going to end up getting crummy items that have low spell damage on them just because they have haste. I'm talking about stacking haste in items that are equivalent or better to the gear I have at the moment. Also, for reference, the crit aggro I was talking about IS burst. Having a crit now and then doesn't bug me, but I do have the lovely tendency to get a string of 3-4 7k crits in a row, and that doesn't usually bode well. |
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July 11, 2008, 01:35 PM
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#15 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Barclande 70 Undead Warlock Smolderthorn US PvP Guild: Writhen Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
From what I know of haste, it isn't worth it unless your able to stack a crap ton of it. Pre-Sunwell, there isn;t much available to stack the crap out of it, and if you do get all the pieces to stack it high enough, your other stats will more than likely be severely lacking. All the research I have done on this subject has brought me to this conclusion, so I have never tested it myself, so I could be horribly wrong here, wouldn't be the first time, but I doubt it. |
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July 11, 2008, 01:42 PM
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#16 (permalink) | |
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Re: Haste vs. Crit
Quote:
I'd really like to know. I'm at 1105 shadow damage, 94 haste, and my tooltip crit is still ony 17% without devastation or raid buffs. And guess what? That's because I've never gemmed a single thing for crit. So which is it???
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The right most valued by civilized men is the right to be let alone. ~~ Justice Louis Brandeis |
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July 11, 2008, 01:57 PM
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#17 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Purebalance 80 Human Warlock Muradin US PvE Guild: Shadowraven Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/50/21 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
Wow! Just wow. I have been saying what was quoted from buzzkill since haste came out and everyone was like STONE HIM!(not necessarily people on here but people in general) It's like going 21/40 before T6 content. IT may "work" but there is far better for dps. The reason 90% of the easily obtainable haste gear is crappy is that the amount of total stats you get from them compared to other items converted into a dps value is far lower because you don't get as much spell damage on a piece with 10 more crit than haste maybe until you hit sunwell. Haste really isn't the super stat people say it is until you have about 1400-1500 spell damage buffed and the recommended crit chance for a destro lock to have to be benefitting the raid. At lower levels, getting the haste gear typically will gimp your other stats which in turn devalues the haste in itself. Also, haste has more value in a longer fight because the mechanism itself really only accounts for 1 extra spell cast per 100 per 15.7 haste rating. If you're casting over(and this is stretching it) 120 shadow bolts on a boss other than a very few certain ones, then your and your raid dps sucks in all honesty. Due to latency(most people typically have about 100-200 and sometimes 300), you're not going to really be able to solve anything until you get to a certain level of haste as far as movement goes. You may "see" the difference in the spells but when it comes to reaction time and other things, you're pretty much going to still be right on par with a lock who runs 0 haste unless you're a machine synced with WoW and you have crystal clear latency. So basically unless you're able to get t6 belt boots bracers, illidan's staff, and the other things from sunwell and the crafted bracers maybe, you're pretty much just kidding yourself. Do your raid a favor and get your crit to the destro lock recommended amount for ISB uptime and much less to improve your own dps. *** Information added 0 Minutes and 49 Seconds later... *** That is why you don't roll destro in t4 content. |
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July 11, 2008, 02:05 PM
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#18 (permalink) |
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Character Info
nocturnus 70 Blood Elf Warlock Kazzak Euro PvP Guild: Incorporated Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
I'll try to be a bit clearer and crisper in my answer than the people who answered before me were. To keep things simple: Before you start raiding the sunwell plateau, haste is not your priority at all. This simply due to the fact that you have other stas on which you need to focus. The only items worth getting for future use, are the ring from za, the trash ring from bt, the pvp neck and ilidans staff. Note that these items will only give your dps a boost when combined with other haste items. Before Sunwell, never, ever, gem for pure crit. If you need the crit badly get crit/spelldamage gems. If you have about 20% crit without talents and unbuffed, gem with 12 spell damage gems. After getting your hands on some Sunwell gear, start gemming with haste/spelldamage. No pure haste gems, as haste scales with the amount of spell damage you have. Your primary concern is to cap your hit. Which shouldn't be that hard, expecially when you rid yourself of crafted stuff and raid T6 content. To summarize: With exception of the 12 spell damage gems, pure gems are bad/provide less dps. You won't need to sacrifice spell damage when you hit Sunwell plateau and start itemizing for haste. You will however sacrifice crit on the sheet. But remember, with more haste, you'll need a less higher % of crit to actually have the same amount of crits. (the more shadow bolts you cast, the higher the chance of a crit.) Therefore sacrificing crit for haste, isn't a real sacrifice. Guys, believe me, before sunwell it IS: Hit-->Spell damage-->Crit After getting your hands on some nice Sunwell gear it's: Hit-->Haste-->Spell damage-->Crit My armory for those who are curious: http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...ak&n=Nocturnus |
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July 11, 2008, 02:06 PM
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#19 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Purebalance 80 Human Warlock Muradin US PvE Guild: Shadowraven Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/50/21 |
Re: Haste vs. Crit
Also from a threat perspective as well is another reason to wait til you're in late t5 to t6 content to go destro. Your tanks aren't going to be generating as much threat in t4 and lower t5 content so of course more crit is going to send you right to the top..... of the threat meter. Once you hit t6 content your tanks should be able to handle chain 9k 10k crits on most bosses and still stay ahead in threat. But on the same note, the bosses in that content have lower HP so you really won't see the benefit of having anything under 100 haste rating(~6 more spell casts per 100) and even then it's not going to be that great. All of these "success stories" of haste in lower content is just to the fact these people didnt have good gear to begin with is really what I think is the deal and any improvement is better than what they had even if it wasn't the optimum |
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| continued, Crit, crits, Destruction, disadvantage, Gear, Haste, Raiding:, spell, Spell Haste, Stacking, theorycrafting, thread |
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