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December 04, 2008, 05:37 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Midglelock 80 Gnome Warlock Korgath Alliance US PvP Guild: The Council of Tirisfal Talent Spec: 53/1/17 |
Backdraft No Good?
Hey Everyone, I've seen a lot of people posting deep destro specs. They each have the core components with a few variations based on play style. The one common theme i have seen is people not spec'ing into backdraft. My question is why people are neglecting to put the three points into backdraft? It is a given 30% haste increase after you conflag. I mostly see people spec'ing into unholy power instead. Why? |
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December 04, 2008, 06:10 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kiralyn 80 Human Warlock Mal'Ganis US PvP Guild: Self Titled Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0.13.58 |
Re: Backdraft No Good?
Mainly because backdraft doesn't actually give haste. That's a common misconception. It only reduces the cast time of your spells. At high levels of haste, or while under the affects of heroism, drums, or a trinket, it causes clipping against the GCD of Immolate and Chaos Bolt. The affect doesn't provide haste, so it doesn't actually lower your global. Basically it's a skill that doesn't scale at all with gear. Add to this the high mana cost of Conflag, and a lot of testing is showing an increase in DPS by not using conflag in a stand and nuke fight, making backdraft wasted points. Its not something that makes sense from a design view. Most people are looking at this as a poorly implemented talent that is either very underpowered or too deep in the tree. The natural place to put these points is in Unholy Power. That's a flat, understandable increase in DPS of your imp's damage + 20%. For an imp doing 300 dps, that's an increase for you of 60 dps, which comes out ahead of any benefit that backdraft might be giving you.
__________________
Hell, it's about time. -Tychus Findlaw |
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December 04, 2008, 06:25 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
Character Info
Lavath 80 Blood Elf Warlock Shadow Council US RP Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/13/55 |
Re: Backdraft No Good?
I don't know.. Kiralyn has a valid point but personally, I love 3/3 Backdraft. Especially since I don't have a "high" haste (I am currently walking around at 191 or so haste) and I feel like it helps me out a bit. I'm sure that when you have better gear it probably doesn't make as much sense. Maybe it would be a good thing to take for destro locks leveling up in northrend if they didn't have a lot of haste out of the gate. |
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December 05, 2008, 03:23 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Midglelock 80 Gnome Warlock Korgath Alliance US PvP Guild: The Council of Tirisfal Talent Spec: 53/1/17 |
Re: Backdraft
Exactly how much haste causes this issue with the GCD? I have 360 haste right now. My spec is the 0/20/51: Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft With my haste would it be beneficial for me to put those 2 points elsewhere? 2xSoul Leech, shadow burn and shadow fury? My other stats are 17% crit, 1550 SP, 330 hit unbuffed in case it matters 
Last edited by Midgelock; December 05, 2008 at 03:32 PM.. |
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December 09, 2008, 02:29 PM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Gallrock 80 Orc Warlock Galakrond US PvE PvP Guild: Born of Ashes Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Backdraft
edit - my apologies, I missread this move for backlash >_< |
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December 10, 2008, 04:00 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Marketh 70 Blood Elf Warlock Neptulon Euro PvP Guild: The Syndicate Talent Spec: 0/40/21 |
Re: Backdraft
every talent on any tree is situation. people tend to build specs based on stand and nuke but in reality the frequency of stand and nuke fights are soo far and few inbetween that nuking on the run makes for a slightly better thought process, but ideally its all about balance. backdraft is completely situational but can be really affective. In my guild we generally run with 2 locks in 25 mans, used to be 4 prelich. but anyway there has always been a dps battle between us locks. at the moment my friend uses a 0/20/51 spec without backdraft, where as i run with a 5/13/53 spec with the inclusion of backdraft. since i know there are plenty of times i will be on the move that using conflag isnt always a drop in dps but couple that with my 400 haste and then lauching 3 soulfires at a 2.4 second cast rate with emp imp and molten core you can easily push 12-14k crits. soul fire is often overlooked, tbh its a crap spell on its own but with the reductions in casting time with backdraft then it makes it effective. with it i can push easily 3.7-4k dps while my friend( who has slightly better gear) only manages 3.1 at best. im not saying that you should be using it at every opperunity as you would need a shard bag as fat as patchwerk to do so, but it is plausible to launch 2 soulfires and a cbolt then refresh your immo. the question is; is it worth 3 points for something that you will use maybe 3 times during a boss fight? is the dps really an increase? or is it just luck. |
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December 10, 2008, 11:03 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kiralyn 80 Human Warlock Mal'Ganis US PvP Guild: Self Titled Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0.13.58 |
Re: Backdraft
In reading EJ, the general consensus is that Backlash isn't really worth it, for a couple reasons. First, as I stated above, the spells you need to cast (refresh immolate, chaos bolt) clip under many circumstances. This isn't to say that it doesn't have a benefit, but for anything being pushed below the GCD, that benefit is limited. Technically your cast time on Immolate doesn't change. It will still cost you 1.5 seconds modified by your haste. There is something to be said for soulfire nuking during backdraft, however using this is a baseline for DPS isn't acceptable. The shard cost is simple too high. Situational, sure, but in the grand scheme of things a slight increase in burst won't often make a difference. Second, Conflag is overpriced. The spell costs a lot of mana, and has a low DPCT. Taking backdraft out of the equation, conflag would never be cast in a rotation because that time is better used casting another Incinerate. The sole benefit is to proc backdraft, which as stated above, isn't a large benefit. It's hard to put hard values on these things as we don't know how it all pans out yet, but the consensus seems to be to skip out on backdraft. Don't get me wrong; I fully realize that everything isn't a stand and nuke fight. I find myself missing conflag now that I've specced out of it, but not because of backdraft. It's simply something that's useful on the move to get some extra damage out of your immolate. But backdraft in itself just isn't worth the investment in it's current design.
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Hell, it's about time. -Tychus Findlaw |
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December 10, 2008, 11:58 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kintarooe 80 Human Warlock crushridge Euro PvP Guild: la Quinta Essenza Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Backdraft
i love backdraft and conflagrate for my actual gear. it's situational. ok, but with a good use i think is very good talent in 5 man istance is a must becoase you can do burst dps ... in raid, help a lot with dps. here some maths assuming with conflagrate you lost 1 tick of immolate. conflagrate (full buffed) hit for about 1,9 - 2k (with some haste, is not a worst dps with a spell with only GCD) and crit for double. 30% less cast time is 30% more dps for 3 spell. as i read above, sf with 2,4 sec cast is not bad ... sb too... incinerate and cb too. ok.. you lost 1 tick immolate, the gcd for conflagrate (but it do dps too) but you gain 30% dps on spell already good. when i can do right rotation and don't loose any circle of backdraft, my dps go up. Ok...the spell to gain it (confla) have a heavy mana cost... but with lifetap based on spirit, with a good spirit gear you can take 3-4k mana with only tap ... i think mana is not an issue (not all the fight are statics, than you can trap while moving ).And for the non static combat... backdraft help a lot to cast as soon as possibile the spell. I'm sorry for my bad english, but i hope i'm clear
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December 14, 2008, 10:59 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Re: Backdraft
The thing to keep in mind here is that Conflag is mana expensive and generally it's damage sucks. It's also going to be around a 1.5 second cast unless you have quite a bit of haste at level 80. I personally find Backdraft good in two specific applications: 1) PVP: Fear>Immolate>Conflag>Seduce>Soul Fire>Chaos Bolt.....I wrote a post about Destro PVP. 2) Raiding: While Conflag itself may suck, it does have a use, albeit you need a lot of soul Shards. The Mana Cost for Soul Fire is lower than Shadow Bolt. While a Conflag then Soul Firex2, Chaos Boltx1 rotation is very hard to maintain unless you are packing a ton of shards, I point at the fact that it's undeniably higher damage than anything else in the deep destruction build. To get to the point: If you were to sit there and proc molten Core then spam Soul Fire and pop Chaos Bolt when the CD was up, you would do more damage than actually utilizing the accepted rotation. Which ultimately indicates to me that the deep destruction tree is meant for PVP overall, as I think this is a defining talent that deep in the talent tree. So if you are smart and pop CDs, this is a good talent for you. If not, it is hard to utilize efficiently in PVE. Look for a Tier set bonus to eventually give you a ton of damage on Conflag or leave your immolate up. Then you will see some serious possibilities here. |
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