so about killing the puppy...

Ischade · March 17, 2008, 08:00 AM

Hiya all,

I just wanted to get some thoughts on the felpup sacrifice. Namely, when do you do it in a raid?

Some people I talk to say the answer is never. I'm just curious because last night I went ahead and killed him off for Kara and the results were interesting.

On both the prince and nightbane I never had to tap. I downed a pot or two and just straight dpsed the rest of the time. This resulted on me threat caping in both fights (just a tad later then normal).

This lead me to wonder, if I am threat capping anway should I just be sacrificing the puppy so that it is less work for the healers? If I sacrifice the imp (when fire or suc when shadow) I still hit the threat cap at some point and have even started to hold my shatter till phase 2 on prince just because of threat issues. So since I'm capping either way am I really giving anything away by saccrificing the pup?

I have Gruul again tonight and am tempted to sac the pup just to see what happens.

Thoughts?

Malevevely · March 17, 2008, 08:10 AM

Its very rare that it is worth it. If there is any fight downtime then I would say stay with succy. Ex alar is a long fight but there is downtime so just save your taps till then and tell a healer that is what you are doing. Gruul/kara do not have anyfights that are long enough to use the regen.

nme · March 17, 2008, 08:22 AM

My 2 coppers...

I actually run with the poor lil puppy sacced all the time in Kara. I find that with the group i run with, i just will not get the heals, so lifetapping is not much of an option. I usually pot up and love the mana regen of the feldog. I may not top out on dps without the succy sacced (say that 5 times fast) but feel that my overall benefit to the group is better served. I dont run out of mana, i dont run out of health and i can stand and do constant dps. I may be wrong but I know for my group makeup, if I did sac anyhting else, we'd be in trouble. I also find that this is very usefull on illhoof where i am a seed spammer, and by the way, one of the only times i lifetap and get the heals.

Ischade · March 17, 2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malevevely

Its very rare that it is worth it. If there is any fight downtime then I would say stay with succy. Ex alar is a long fight but there is downtime so just save your taps till then and tell a healer that is what you are doing. Gruul/kara do not have anyfights that are long enough to use the regen.

Well as to not having any fights long enough to use it...I don't buy that at T4 gear level. I have to tap multiple times on prince or nightbane without the puppy sacced. With the pup sacced I don't have to tap. In either case I am threat capped.

On Gruul I definitely have to tap quite a bit.

So I guess if your running T6 gear then sure the fight may not be long enough to matter but when the raid has no T6 geared folks I think it must be a different story.

Barkle · March 17, 2008, 08:59 AM

Maybe I'm forgetting what it is like to start Kara, but I wonder why people aren't getting heals. Maybe I just have remarkable healers and should fall down on my knees and thank Thrall they are around. I life tap, and I almost always get healed. I am currently demo, so I have no health restoring talents. Unless we are learning a new fight, I tap once, get healed. There are some fights where I don't get the heals, but that is why I have bandages and pots and healthstones.

I always preferred to sac a VW rather than the felpuppy. Health regen is always good, and with any decent amount of +damage, your Life Tap will more than make up the difference between the 2% health and 3% mana.

sonte · March 17, 2008, 10:59 AM

The only fight where i would sac the puppy over the succy is Nightbane. The only reason for that is because healers are rarely able to concentrate on healing me unless i am in the blue beam. Also, even though you might be threat capped that does not mean you are doing the same dps. Have you compaired your damage out put and dps with the puppy to the succy? When I did it, even though i was life tapping more, i still did more damage with the succy sac. One last thing, are your healers complaining about healing your lifetaps, and is that why you decided to try out the puppy?

Ischade · March 17, 2008, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sonte

The only fight where i would sac the puppy over the succy is Nightbane. The only reason for that is because healers are rarely able to concentrate on healing me unless i am in the blue beam. Also, even though you might be threat capped that does not mean you are doing the same dps. Have you compaired your damage out put and dps with the puppy to the succy? When I did it, even though i was life tapping more, i still did more damage with the succy sac. One last thing, are your healers complaining about healing your lifetaps, and is that why you decided to try out the puppy?

Just was trying it out for fun really. We generally aren't having trouble dropping the bosses. I guess the other reason I was checking was because where I do run into issues is on Gruul. We seem to be short healing at times there so my lifetapping isn't always a great plan. I am already chain chugging pots etc but still find myself deciding between running dry and tapping even though there is a shatter comming.

As to damage output, my gross at the end appears close to the same but my burst is definitely lower.

About threat cap...besides timing the shatter differently (experimenting with this) and getting the subtlety enchant on cloak, what is one to do? My dps is limited in either scenario by the fact that I end up running into the cap on any fight over 4-5mins.

doogless · March 17, 2008, 01:37 PM

Give your tanks more lead-time before you start DPS will help with your threat problems so that you can Soul Shatter later into the fight. You absolutely should not be Soul Shattering before P2 on Prince because it will leave you capped again before the fight is over.

If you want I can make a graph to explain what I mean.

Sickly · March 17, 2008, 01:50 PM

I kill a puppy for all Boss fights to maintain a little mana. I am usually out anyways on Boss fights so the downtime helps me drop some aggro as well. SS is great, but the cool down sucks as I can do a ton of damage by then. The 15% damage is a little help for my aggro problems as well.

Sickly

Solarus · March 17, 2008, 02:10 PM

The only fight i've been in where a felhunter sac would of better use to the raid would have to be on the high warlord naj'entus fight in black temple. Whole raid taking an 8k blast every minute + lifetaps = not happening :P

What might be an idea, don't know if its necessarily good if your healers dont heal you (quite sneaky but it might force your healers to throw you a heal) is to lifetap 3 or 4 times in a row when you're almost out of mana so that your healers will look at your hp and think "hey he's in danger". One greater heal later and everyone's happy ehe.

From a healer point of view some efficiency is saved by doing one big great heal rather than having to heal small amounts in small chunks. If your healers are great, topping off the raid isn't a problem. But healers will more easily notice your health if you do it that way.

March 17, 2008, 08:00 AM	#1 (permalink)
Ischade Member Character Info Ischade 70 Blood Elf Warlock Kirin Tor US RP Guild: Unfettered Talent Spec: 0/21/40	so about killing the puppy... Hiya all, I just wanted to get some thoughts on the felpup sacrifice. Namely, when do you do it in a raid? Some people I talk to say the answer is never. I'm just curious because last night I went ahead and killed him off for Kara and the results were interesting. On both the prince and nightbane I never had to tap. I downed a pot or two and just straight dpsed the rest of the time. This resulted on me threat caping in both fights (just a tad later then normal). This lead me to wonder, if I am threat capping anway should I just be sacrificing the puppy so that it is less work for the healers? If I sacrifice the imp (when fire or suc when shadow) I still hit the threat cap at some point and have even started to hold my shatter till phase 2 on prince just because of threat issues. So since I'm capping either way am I really giving anything away by saccrificing the pup? I have Gruul again tonight and am tempted to sac the pup just to see what happens. Thoughts?

March 17, 2008, 08:10 AM	#2 (permalink)
Malevevely Member Character Info Malevevely 70 Undead Warlock KJ US PvP	Re: so about killing the puppy... Its very rare that it is worth it. If there is any fight downtime then I would say stay with succy. Ex alar is a long fight but there is downtime so just save your taps till then and tell a healer that is what you are doing. Gruul/kara do not have anyfights that are long enough to use the regen.

March 17, 2008, 08:22 AM	#3 (permalink)
nme Lurker Character Info nme 70 Undead Warlock shandris US PvE Guild: Blacklisted Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: so about killing the puppy... My 2 coppers... I actually run with the poor lil puppy sacced all the time in Kara. I find that with the group i run with, i just will not get the heals, so lifetapping is not much of an option. I usually pot up and love the mana regen of the feldog. I may not top out on dps without the succy sacced (say that 5 times fast) but feel that my overall benefit to the group is better served. I dont run out of mana, i dont run out of health and i can stand and do constant dps. I may be wrong but I know for my group makeup, if I did sac anyhting else, we'd be in trouble. I also find that this is very usefull on illhoof where i am a seed spammer, and by the way, one of the only times i lifetap and get the heals.

March 17, 2008, 08:59 AM	#5 (permalink)
Barkle Member Character Info Barkle 70 Undead Warlock Rexxar US PvE Guild: Corpus Vile Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: so about killing the puppy... Maybe I'm forgetting what it is like to start Kara, but I wonder why people aren't getting heals. Maybe I just have remarkable healers and should fall down on my knees and thank Thrall they are around. I life tap, and I almost always get healed. I am currently demo, so I have no health restoring talents. Unless we are learning a new fight, I tap once, get healed. There are some fights where I don't get the heals, but that is why I have bandages and pots and healthstones. I always preferred to sac a VW rather than the felpuppy. Health regen is always good, and with any decent amount of +damage, your Life Tap will more than make up the difference between the 2% health and 3% mana.

March 17, 2008, 10:59 AM	#6 (permalink)
sonte Member Character Info Sonte 70 Human Warlock Khaz Modan US PvE Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: so about killing the puppy... The only fight where i would sac the puppy over the succy is Nightbane. The only reason for that is because healers are rarely able to concentrate on healing me unless i am in the blue beam. Also, even though you might be threat capped that does not mean you are doing the same dps. Have you compaired your damage out put and dps with the puppy to the succy? When I did it, even though i was life tapping more, i still did more damage with the succy sac. One last thing, are your healers complaining about healing your lifetaps, and is that why you decided to try out the puppy?

March 17, 2008, 01:37 PM	#8 (permalink)
doogless Member Character Info Themorrigan 70 Human Warlock Kil'Jaeden US PvP Guild: The Collective Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/0/0	Re: so about killing the puppy... Give your tanks more lead-time before you start DPS will help with your threat problems so that you can Soul Shatter later into the fight. You absolutely should not be Soul Shattering before P2 on Prince because it will leave you capped again before the fight is over. If you want I can make a graph to explain what I mean. Last edited by doogless; March 17, 2008 at 01:48 PM.

March 17, 2008, 01:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
Sickly Lurker Character Info Sickly 70 Undead Warlock Drenden US PvE Guild: Malediction Talent Spec: 0/45/17	Re: so about killing the puppy... I kill a puppy for all Boss fights to maintain a little mana. I am usually out anyways on Boss fights so the downtime helps me drop some aggro as well. SS is great, but the cool down sucks as I can do a ton of damage by then. The 15% damage is a little help for my aggro problems as well. Sickly

March 17, 2008, 02:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
Solarus Member Character Info Solarus 70 Human Warlock Zenedar Euro PvP Talent Spec: 6/44/11	Re: so about killing the puppy... The only fight i've been in where a felhunter sac would of better use to the raid would have to be on the high warlord naj'entus fight in black temple. Whole raid taking an 8k blast every minute + lifetaps = not happening :P What might be an idea, don't know if its necessarily good if your healers dont heal you (quite sneaky but it might force your healers to throw you a heal) is to lifetap 3 or 4 times in a row when you're almost out of mana so that your healers will look at your hp and think "hey he's in danger". One greater heal later and everyone's happy ehe. From a healer point of view some efficiency is saved by doing one big great heal rather than having to heal small amounts in small chunks. If your healers are great, topping off the raid isn't a problem. But healers will more easily notice your health if you do it that way. Last edited by Solarus; March 17, 2008 at 02:14 PM.