Infernal/Doomguard Discussion:

SeeEs · November 09, 2004, 10:00 PM

[size=18px]Infernal/Doomguard Discussion:[/size]

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

1. Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/8/2004 9:58:34 PM GMTST

Since many many threads have popped up regarding the Infernal/Doomguard and Enslave Demon spell, I would ask our testers to submit your feedback here and make any suggestions you feel would improve the current set up.

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

3. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/8/2004 11:38:20 PM GMTST

Infernals are geared for use in a group situation. Trying to solo with the Infernal is risky business, and of course Doom Guards can't be used at all outside of groups.

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

15. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/9/2004 12:50:08 AM GMTST

Let me clarify that the infernal and the doom guard are not like other pets (I apologize for stating the obvious), and thus the logic that they should conform to the standards set by other warlock pets would be incorrect.

And to the poster who stated that infernals add only a tiny additional dps, I think we all realize that they hit for quite a lot.

Infernals are powerful, and risky to summon, however they are incredibly powerful and useful in certain situations. This was the logic when designing the infernal and doom guard.

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

26. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/9/2004 2:17:18 AM GMTST

In every point that has come up, I only see players that wish to use the Infernal as a solo tool. This is not its intended use. A warlock would be risking much to summon the Infernal and attempt to keep it under control without outside assistance.

You will need a hand to summon an Infernal and keep it under control. That is a central feature of the Infernal and Doom Guard.

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

166. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/9/2004 11:11:52 PM GMTST

I'd like to stress this point again that the Infernal and the Doom Guard are not pets in the sense of the word as the Felhunter or Voidwalker.

They are useful in certain situations, and are not meant to be permanent sidekicks to the Warlock.

Understanding that there will always be the risk factor involved when it comes to the Infernal and Doom Guard, I'd ask players give their feedback on these two powerful demons.

Quote:

Caydiem
Blizzard Poster

167. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/9/2004 11:13:10 PM GMTST

Hey folks, just an update for you after speaking with the developers.

The concepts behind the Infernal and Doomguard -- the manner of summoning, the need to keep it enslaved, for example -- are probably here to stay.

What is certainly going to be looked at, however, is the effectiveness of Enslave Demon and the numbers involved.

Please do continue to give us your feedback -- we'd like to hear how you feel the current concepts could be improved or balanced.

[ post edited by Caydiem ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager, WoW

Quote:

Tyren
Blizzard Poster

340. Re: Infernal/Doomguard discussion | 11/11/2004 10:54:21 PM GMTST

The developers continue to monitor the situation. We won't be able to give an immediate response on any considerations to changes, but we are most definitely aware that players have these concerns.

SeeEs · November 09, 2004, 10:10 PM

For those who've played Dungeons and Dragons, you may know that extraplanar entities do not like to be summoned or faced with outside compulsion. Thus the need for Enslave Demon.

We have four regular sidekicks who, for the moment, don't have to be made content akin to Hunters' pets. Bear in mind that Hunters can also lose control of their pets, so our pets should not be risk free for the sake of continuity and balance to say the least.

Let's remember that Warlock's are not Hero classes; ergo the current incarnation of the spells are not the ultimate final forms. Warlocks were mages at a point, who've now draw upon the twisted nether and are not innate masters of the denizens therein. We exploit demons for our own ends which most likely make said demons very happy.

SeeEs · November 09, 2004, 10:28 PM

Questions for Developers and Testers: Is the purpose of Enslave Demon to be a secondary spell for retaining control over summons or a crowd control ability? If the latter, the Banish would be clearly superior as a means of crowd controlling/(neutralizing a demon in any given scenario)given the Soul Shard cost, the increased chance for demons to break free after an unknown quantity and over thrice the cost in mana. Not much of a trade off and virtually no incentive to retain control of said demon given the aforesaid. If the former, consider the cost in summoning the Inferal to begin with and the decreased marginal utility over time. If this is necessary, then the reagent should be removed altogether since a reagent was already required to summon the Demon or in some cases a sacrifice. Does the power of the doomguard really warrant such a cost? The blood of the living is not enough, but we must, in a sense, feed it a soul ever 5 [seconds][minutes] as the random number generator determines?

soulrealm · December 17, 2004, 12:27 PM

No problem with the infernal and the doomguard...
But i think it would be cool to add one or two high level pet.. A warlock without a pet is pretty lame.. at high level, ppls have a lot of free potions and know how to use them.. we really need our pet to fight.
Not add a pet for 20 level for our classe is sad .. :(

Infernal and doomguard are not pets.. they are really good DoT ..
Summoned in some rare event with high risk..I have no problemes with that..
but give us a pet at level 60.

I m pretty happy with the pets we got atm.. And i m not complaingning anymore about our doomguard and infernal.
I have already find an use for them. Well.. at least for the infernal..
But i would like a charm completly designed for those pets. Like.. 'no soul shard'..
Perhaps a little casting time.. like 1 sec..

Infernal is really powerfull.. no doubt about it. solo or pvp with a full controled pet like an infernal = warlock babyboom on every server ,followed by a nerf 1 month after.

Regards,

Soulrealm

ps:I m sorry to my bad english.

Eliesputa · December 18, 2004, 10:37 AM

I disagree that enslave demon is weaker or inferior CC to banish.

Enslave demon is ADDITIONAL CC to banish. And you can get the sac talent or whatever it is called to give yourself a bonus from your old pet and then enslave away. So you can CC two things, while doing extra damage from the enslave and doing extra damage (or having more hps) from getting rid of your own pet.

Deathstrider · December 19, 2004, 12:21 AM

Enslave Demon is inferior to Banish for several reasons.

#1. Enslave Demon cannot be cast on a tapped mob. Banish can.

#2. If it breaks, both the (formerly) Enslaved Demon *and* the mob it was fighting cheerfully come and kill you. If Banish breaks, only the one mob attacks.

#3. You can Banish while still having a Pet.

#4. The Sacrifice talent you mention requires a 21 point investment into Demonology. This is scarcely a compensatory return. Banish requires no such investment to return a value.

deadfuse · February 06, 2005, 05:15 PM

The biggest problem with Enslave Demon as I see it is that it can be dispelled, making it 200% useless in pvp situations (200 because it becomes a liability that attacks YOU and YOUR party).

Madura · March 14, 2005, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by soulrealm

No problem with the infernal and the doomguard...
But i think it would be cool to add one or two high level pet.. A warlock without a pet is pretty lame.. at high level, ppls have a lot of free potions and know how to use them.. we really need our pet to fight.
Not add a pet for 20 level for our classe is sad .. :(

Infernal and doomguard are not pets.. they are really good DoT ..
Summoned in some rare event with high risk..I have no problemes with that..
but give us a pet at level 60.

I m pretty happy with the pets we got atm.. And i m not complaingning anymore about our doomguard and infernal.
I have already find an use for them. Well.. at least for the infernal..
But i would like a charm completly designed for those pets. Like.. 'no soul shard'..
Perhaps a little casting time.. like 1 sec..

Infernal is really powerfull.. no doubt about it. solo or pvp with a full controled pet like an infernal = warlock babyboom on every server ,followed by a nerf 1 month after.

Regards,

Soulrealm

ps:I m sorry to my bad english.

haha I wouldnt mind another imp, with better hp and mana. Shoots shadowbolts instead of firebolts! Maybe a larger size, different coloring. That would be sweet.

Maestrodomus · March 16, 2005, 02:15 PM

With some good practice, enslave is far superior to banish.

First, it provides CC for 2 mobs, whereas banish only allows for one.

Second, not only are you crowd-controlling two times the mobs, but they are both suffering damage, while the banished mob just sits there (wasted time).

Third, having a pet out with banish is an inferior argument; enslave functions as both a pet and CC.

Fourth, if it breaks while you're fighting, you most likely are managing it improperly for it rarely breaks too early with curse of shadows, or even without unless you're enslaving something 3-4 levels above you. You can string along the same enslave for over an hour with little difficulty if you practice. There are several posts detailing this at all different levels and situations (group, solo, raid, instance, etc.)

Fifth, why not just use them together, seems elementary.

Maestrodomus · March 16, 2005, 02:21 PM

I totally forgot Demonic Sacrafice. Which utterly rocks in conjunction with enslave. Twenty percent mana buff is nearly 1000 at my level. While not everyone is that high in Demonology, it is something to consider.

Not to mention Soul Link, which works with all enslavable demons. Furthermore, it works after ensalve breaks as long as you get it off before the break. Really helps when they pound on you for half the damage.

November 09, 2004, 10:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
SeeEs Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: For those who've played Dungeons and Dragons, you may know that extraplanar entities do not like to be summoned or faced with outside compulsion. Thus the need for Enslave Demon. We have four regular sidekicks who, for the moment, don't have to be made content akin to Hunters' pets. Bear in mind that Hunters can also lose control of their pets, so our pets should not be risk free for the sake of continuity and balance to say the least. Let's remember that Warlock's are not Hero classes; ergo the current incarnation of the spells are not the ultimate final forms. Warlocks were mages at a point, who've now draw upon the twisted nether and are not innate masters of the denizens therein. We exploit demons for our own ends which most likely make said demons very happy.

November 09, 2004, 10:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
SeeEs Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: Questions for Developers and Testers: Is the purpose of Enslave Demon to be a secondary spell for retaining control over summons or a crowd control ability? If the latter, the Banish would be clearly superior as a means of crowd controlling/(neutralizing a demon in any given scenario)given the Soul Shard cost, the increased chance for demons to break free after an unknown quantity and over thrice the cost in mana. Not much of a trade off and virtually no incentive to retain control of said demon given the aforesaid. If the former, consider the cost in summoning the Inferal to begin with and the decreased marginal utility over time. If this is necessary, then the reagent should be removed altogether since a reagent was already required to summon the Demon or in some cases a sacrifice. Does the power of the doomguard really warrant such a cost? The blood of the living is not enough, but we must, in a sense, feed it a soul ever 5 [seconds][minutes] as the random number generator determines?

December 17, 2004, 12:27 PM	#4 (permalink)
soulrealm Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: No problem with the infernal and the doomguard... But i think it would be cool to add one or two high level pet.. A warlock without a pet is pretty lame.. at high level, ppls have a lot of free potions and know how to use them.. we really need our pet to fight. Not add a pet for 20 level for our classe is sad .. :( Infernal and doomguard are not pets.. they are really good DoT .. Summoned in some rare event with high risk..I have no problemes with that.. but give us a pet at level 60. I m pretty happy with the pets we got atm.. And i m not complaingning anymore about our doomguard and infernal. I have already find an use for them. Well.. at least for the infernal.. But i would like a charm completly designed for those pets. Like.. 'no soul shard'.. Perhaps a little casting time.. like 1 sec.. Infernal is really powerfull.. no doubt about it. solo or pvp with a full controled pet like an infernal = warlock babyboom on every server ,followed by a nerf 1 month after. Regards, Soulrealm ps:I m sorry to my bad english.

December 18, 2004, 10:37 AM	#5 (permalink)
Eliesputa Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: I disagree that enslave demon is weaker or inferior CC to banish. Enslave demon is ADDITIONAL CC to banish. And you can get the sac talent or whatever it is called to give yourself a bonus from your old pet and then enslave away. So you can CC two things, while doing extra damage from the enslave and doing extra damage (or having more hps) from getting rid of your own pet.

December 19, 2004, 12:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Deathstrider Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: Enslave Demon is inferior to Banish for several reasons. #1. Enslave Demon cannot be cast on a tapped mob. Banish can. #2. If it breaks, both the (formerly) Enslaved Demon and the mob it was fighting cheerfully come and kill you. If Banish breaks, only the one mob attacks. #3. You can Banish while still having a Pet. #4. The Sacrifice talent you mention requires a 21 point investment into Demonology. This is scarcely a compensatory return. Banish requires no such investment to return a value.

February 06, 2005, 05:15 PM	#7 (permalink)
deadfuse Lurker	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: The biggest problem with Enslave Demon as I see it is that it can be dispelled, making it 200% useless in pvp situations (200 because it becomes a liability that attacks YOU and YOUR party).

March 16, 2005, 02:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
Maestrodomus Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: With some good practice, enslave is far superior to banish. First, it provides CC for 2 mobs, whereas banish only allows for one. Second, not only are you crowd-controlling two times the mobs, but they are both suffering damage, while the banished mob just sits there (wasted time). Third, having a pet out with banish is an inferior argument; enslave functions as both a pet and CC. Fourth, if it breaks while you're fighting, you most likely are managing it improperly for it rarely breaks too early with curse of shadows, or even without unless you're enslaving something 3-4 levels above you. You can string along the same enslave for over an hour with little difficulty if you practice. There are several posts detailing this at all different levels and situations (group, solo, raid, instance, etc.) Fifth, why not just use them together, seems elementary.

March 16, 2005, 02:21 PM	#10 (permalink)
Maestrodomus Member	Infernal/Doomguard Discussion: I totally forgot Demonic Sacrafice. Which utterly rocks in conjunction with enslave. Twenty percent mana buff is nearly 1000 at my level. While not everyone is that high in Demonology, it is something to consider. Not to mention Soul Link, which works with all enslavable demons. Furthermore, it works after ensalve breaks as long as you get it off before the break. Really helps when they pound on you for half the damage.