Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate...

Shade Angel · November 10, 2004, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Hey folks, just an update for you after speaking with the developers.

The concepts behind the Infernal and Doomguard -- the manner of summoning, the need to keep it enslaved, for example -- are probably here to stay.

What is certainly going to be looked at, however, is the effectiveness of Enslave Demon and the numbers involved.

Please do continue to give us your feedback -- we'd like to hear how you feel the current concepts could be improved or balanced.

[ post edited by Caydiem ]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Caydiem -
Assistant Community Manager, WoW

Lets hope for a good change to Enslave Demon... :axe:

Larsz · November 10, 2004, 01:45 PM

I doubt that they will make any significant changes, at least a big enough change to attract me to the Inferno spell. Warlocks have been rightfully complaining about Enslave Demon for several patches now. That post from Caydiem removes any hope of the Infernal being a pet, it will always be a spell. This is a balancing nightmare and one that will take several, many patches to get ironed out. I will stick to using bombs :D

boscolio · November 10, 2004, 04:22 PM

as long as i can use the infernal and doomguards as pets and not toys, i'll be happy. but they need to get rid of the shard requirement for enslave demon. the spells for both those pets already have a reagent, one that costs money. if they really want us to use shards then include it in the casting of those pet spells. a reagent and 1 or 2 shards would be fine with me as long as enslave demon was a valid spell.

Fain · November 11, 2004, 05:40 PM

They want a balance control. So make the spell costly.

Enslave demon - 500 mana
Cost: 5 - 15 soul shards
Desc: Enslaves a demon for a set 15- 45 mins.
Misc. The more souls infused in conjuction of the spell will provide a longer more stable control over the creature.

Why do I put the cost so high? Because, charms breaks games. That gives enslave a viable use, as its a set time. But the set cost comes at the price of it wiping all of our stones out of commision in most cases. Can we collect more and re charm? Yeah but it should be set that we can't recharm untill after it breaks. Just my personal on it, and I'm sure some will hate it, as it uses soul stones in a bulk sense.. But hell I have about 20 soul stones in storage every time I log off, and I kill at a rate of at least 3 mobs per 10 mins.. So groups should be fast enough to do this..

If such were to be imp'd as above, a soulbag with 20 slots would be a nice quest at level.. 35 or so.

SeeEs · November 11, 2004, 10:08 PM

Here are the Blizzard responses up to this point.

Silvarion · November 14, 2004, 09:21 AM

I've been reading all the threads related to this controversy ( a LOT of reading, let me tell you!) and the one thing that jumps out at me is that the Blizzard devs, as like so many, don't seem to have a guiding principle, a backstory, that explains why warlocks can do what they do, including summoning demons. Yes, I know that there's the Warcraft universe, but that's simply a narrative, there's little causation there. So, when they think of restricting the high level pets, they fall back on the tired conventions of making them lethal to the caster and allies, or uncontrollable. Been there, done that, got bored, went home. :?

Using what we've been given, I would have made the Infernal/Doomguard the result of a long process of epic questing and study.

Questing

I say that the path to summoning Infernals/Doomguards would be epic because it would begin from the earliest levels and proceed in a continuously unfolding storyline that would lead the warlock deeper and deeper into the realms of demonic summoning. The contacts/teachers would be ever more out of the way and hard to reach, the demands ever increasing. At each step, from novice to master, the warlock would constantly prove himself and gain knowledge from having done so. This is one side of the coin toward becoming a master summoner, the experience side. But there are no one-sided coins, so it's indispensable. The summoner would learn facets such as:

1. Sacrifice - the motivations of demons are often esoteric, but at their basest level, they are observed to be animated by the infliction of pain. The sacrifice quests, requiring the warlock to slay his targets, will inculcate in the would-be summoner the knowledge of the necessary blood rites to attract the higher demonic powers.

2. Reagent - the rituals involved in demonic summoning are exacting and particular. It is often a matter of this herb as opposed to that one as the difference between success and disaster. So a quest might involve nothing more than obtaining an obscure herb, or be as involved as acquiring a list of ingredients, some of which would have to be fashioned.

Study

The other side of the coin for the warlock. Whereas questing is the field work, study leads to the arcane mastery that infuses the experience and brings meaning to it. The warlock who would master the higher demons must be versed in certain aspects of Affliction, Destruction, and of course Demonology. Within each field of study, certain emphases are required, such as so many ranks in draining souls, or a certain degree of knowledge in the application of hellfire, or even a honing of stamina beyond the average person to deal with the demands of summoning. Perhaps a heightened knowledge of the application of certain curses, or the study of better techniques for employing the lesser demons would be in order.

Combining the two approaches, questing and studying, along with "reasonable" restrictions that recognize the power of the Infernal but also bow to the effort a warlock has invested to that point, an Infernal pet is hardly out of line. But the devs haven't thought that expansively and instead see the Infernal as a discrete summoning tacked at the end of a warlock's experience. It's no wonder, with such lack of vision, that they would come up with restrictions so silly that the summon is unusable for most warlocks.

The Doomguard might work out of the pet realm as a temporary ally, coerced to do the warlock's bidding, requiring the power of a sacrifice to open the gate. But a random sacrifice of a party member is almost a non-starter. And when you add to that the necessity to control the summon with the unreliable Enslave spell (isn't control subsumed into the very act of a successful summons?) PLUS its lethal intent to turn on the warlock and the party...this is not a spell that is meant to be used. It's a shelf item, provided so that the marketing department can point to it and use it to pull in other would-be Harry Potters off the street and get them to subscribe. It's a culmination of nothing because it's divorced from the milieu that spawned it and is in fact contemptuous of it. It is, rather, a typical dev concoction, a perfect example of the species. As I said, got bored, went home...

Silvarion (who had really looked forward to running a pet class again...) :roll:

"Boy's got more nerve than a bum tooth..."
-- W.C. Fields

Ingeloak · November 20, 2004, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fain

They want a balance control. So make the spell costly.

Enslave demon - 500 mana
Cost: 5 - 15 soul shards
Desc: Enslaves a demon for a set 15- 45 mins.
Misc. The more souls infused in conjuction of the spell will provide a longer more stable control over the creature.

Why do I put the cost so high? Because, charms breaks games. That gives enslave a viable use, as its a set time. But the set cost comes at the price of it wiping all of our stones out of commision in most cases. Can we collect more and re charm? Yeah but it should be set that we can't recharm untill after it breaks. Just my personal on it, and I'm sure some will hate it, as it uses soul stones in a bulk sense.. But hell I have about 20 soul stones in storage every time I log off, and I kill at a rate of at least 3 mobs per 10 mins.. So groups should be fast enough to do this..

If such were to be imp'd as above, a soulbag with 20 slots would be a nice quest at level.. 35 or so.

should leave it at a set cost, variable time. i for one dont want to spend 30 minutes filling up a shard bag (i keep them separated, dont you? 8) ) then cast my enslave demon. instead of using a few shards, suddenly i have none left and spend the enslave's duration collecting more. better to use a set number (whatever that may be) to cast spells, or else get rid of the cost period. like they said, infernal and doomguard already have reagent costs. infernal and doomguard are starting to sound like flashy SUVs. a beotch to pay for, and gas-guzzlers from hell...ultimately unpractical. i mean, doomguard requires the death of a teammate. im sure theyre all lining up for that one.

UrAdolt · November 20, 2004, 08:35 AM

I have no plans to get either of the Infernal or the Doomguard at release, I solo or group up with two other people.... that's it... I'm so dissapointed :sad:

Malevolence · November 29, 2004, 02:55 AM

Greetings everyone, had me a 26 UD warlock on server 21 in the recent US open beta, and after trying almost every class available to the Horde, I think I'll stick with both UD and warlock for retail (in the EU <sigh>).

So anyways, I've been keeping an eye out for posts about the Infernal and Doomguard in particular, since these high-end pets seem somewhat, er... difficult to use and just not plain worth the hassle, according to just about every post I've seen about them. Reading about how priests could also simply dispel the Enslave Demon spell cast on them disheartened me even more at first, but gave me an idea.

Not sure if this has been discussed before - if it has, my humblest apolegies, but I seem to have been unable to find any posts about it - but have any groups of warlocks tried to pass around their Infernals/Doomguards between each other?

Assume you have a couple warlocks teaming/raiding together. If Enslave Demon's dimishing returns are limited on a per-warlock basis, would it not be possible to simply exchange Enslaved demons every few minutes? And if so, does anyone know if exchanging Enslaved demons resets said timer for diminishing returns for the individual warlocks and demons? If it does, all it would take to really use Infernals or Doomguards well, would be 2-3 warlocks with a stopwatch each, a fast hand on Banish to help out each other (in case either warlock's Enslave Demon breaks earlier than the others', and the recast is interrupted) and a decent supply of soulshards before starting the attempt.

This proceedure would of course be extremely vulnerable to latency issues, but seeing as how Tyren and Caydiem seem insistent on it taking a group to properly use Infernals and Doomguards, perhaps cooperation of this sort is what they had in mind?

Again, if this has already been tried and found unfeasible, I can only excuse my ignorance with an inability to find any posts about this on either the closed or open beta boards for the past few months, where I've been lurking fairly dilligently on the US boards, waiting for an EU beta key (finally gotten my hands on one, although it's only for the final beta starting sometime in December).

Malevolence, would-be vile, evil warlock

Pcheez · December 05, 2004, 07:45 PM

No Matter how fubar the infernal/doomguards are, l plan to get them evantually. Just call it, make sure it gets the most aggro possible so it dies before you even have to charm it 1 more time.
In PVP, the sheer sight of it will cause players to attack it, as its damage is not at all negligeable.
So big green's pummeling + your AOE should relly hurt an opposing PvP or PvE party. If its still alive when enslave is about to run out, get on that mount and run like the wind :lol:

In short, nomatter how gimped, the infernal is still one heckofapet.

Since we cant summon indoors, the impact of the inferno crater must be more significant. A longer stun and more damage. In the intro, the warlock commanded 2 infernals.....so that would be nice...even faster death ....and instant suicide when they break :D

November 10, 2004, 01:45 PM	#2 (permalink)
Larsz Member	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... I doubt that they will make any significant changes, at least a big enough change to attract me to the Inferno spell. Warlocks have been rightfully complaining about Enslave Demon for several patches now. That post from Caydiem removes any hope of the Infernal being a pet, it will always be a spell. This is a balancing nightmare and one that will take several, many patches to get ironed out. I will stick to using bombs :D

November 10, 2004, 04:22 PM	#3 (permalink)
boscolio Member Character Info boscolio 60 Gnome Warlock Azgalor US PvP Guild: Dark Echo Talent Spec: 43/7/11	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... as long as i can use the infernal and doomguards as pets and not toys, i'll be happy. but they need to get rid of the shard requirement for enslave demon. the spells for both those pets already have a reagent, one that costs money. if they really want us to use shards then include it in the casting of those pet spells. a reagent and 1 or 2 shards would be fine with me as long as enslave demon was a valid spell.

November 11, 2004, 05:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Fain Member	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... They want a balance control. So make the spell costly. Enslave demon - 500 mana Cost: 5 - 15 soul shards Desc: Enslaves a demon for a set 15- 45 mins. Misc. The more souls infused in conjuction of the spell will provide a longer more stable control over the creature. Why do I put the cost so high? Because, charms breaks games. That gives enslave a viable use, as its a set time. But the set cost comes at the price of it wiping all of our stones out of commision in most cases. Can we collect more and re charm? Yeah but it should be set that we can't recharm untill after it breaks. Just my personal on it, and I'm sure some will hate it, as it uses soul stones in a bulk sense.. But hell I have about 20 soul stones in storage every time I log off, and I kill at a rate of at least 3 mobs per 10 mins.. So groups should be fast enough to do this.. If such were to be imp'd as above, a soulbag with 20 slots would be a nice quest at level.. 35 or so.

November 11, 2004, 10:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
SeeEs Member	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... Here are the Blizzard responses up to this point.

November 14, 2004, 09:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
Silvarion Member	no story? I've been reading all the threads related to this controversy ( a LOT of reading, let me tell you!) and the one thing that jumps out at me is that the Blizzard devs, as like so many, don't seem to have a guiding principle, a backstory, that explains why warlocks can do what they do, including summoning demons. Yes, I know that there's the Warcraft universe, but that's simply a narrative, there's little causation there. So, when they think of restricting the high level pets, they fall back on the tired conventions of making them lethal to the caster and allies, or uncontrollable. Been there, done that, got bored, went home. :? Using what we've been given, I would have made the Infernal/Doomguard the result of a long process of epic questing and study. Questing I say that the path to summoning Infernals/Doomguards would be epic because it would begin from the earliest levels and proceed in a continuously unfolding storyline that would lead the warlock deeper and deeper into the realms of demonic summoning. The contacts/teachers would be ever more out of the way and hard to reach, the demands ever increasing. At each step, from novice to master, the warlock would constantly prove himself and gain knowledge from having done so. This is one side of the coin toward becoming a master summoner, the experience side. But there are no one-sided coins, so it's indispensable. The summoner would learn facets such as: 1. Sacrifice - the motivations of demons are often esoteric, but at their basest level, they are observed to be animated by the infliction of pain. The sacrifice quests, requiring the warlock to slay his targets, will inculcate in the would-be summoner the knowledge of the necessary blood rites to attract the higher demonic powers. 2. Reagent - the rituals involved in demonic summoning are exacting and particular. It is often a matter of this herb as opposed to that one as the difference between success and disaster. So a quest might involve nothing more than obtaining an obscure herb, or be as involved as acquiring a list of ingredients, some of which would have to be fashioned. Study The other side of the coin for the warlock. Whereas questing is the field work, study leads to the arcane mastery that infuses the experience and brings meaning to it. The warlock who would master the higher demons must be versed in certain aspects of Affliction, Destruction, and of course Demonology. Within each field of study, certain emphases are required, such as so many ranks in draining souls, or a certain degree of knowledge in the application of hellfire, or even a honing of stamina beyond the average person to deal with the demands of summoning. Perhaps a heightened knowledge of the application of certain curses, or the study of better techniques for employing the lesser demons would be in order. Combining the two approaches, questing and studying, along with "reasonable" restrictions that recognize the power of the Infernal but also bow to the effort a warlock has invested to that point, an Infernal pet is hardly out of line. But the devs haven't thought that expansively and instead see the Infernal as a discrete summoning tacked at the end of a warlock's experience. It's no wonder, with such lack of vision, that they would come up with restrictions so silly that the summon is unusable for most warlocks. The Doomguard might work out of the pet realm as a temporary ally, coerced to do the warlock's bidding, requiring the power of a sacrifice to open the gate. But a random sacrifice of a party member is almost a non-starter. And when you add to that the necessity to control the summon with the unreliable Enslave spell (isn't control subsumed into the very act of a successful summons?) PLUS its lethal intent to turn on the warlock and the party...this is not a spell that is meant to be used. It's a shelf item, provided so that the marketing department can point to it and use it to pull in other would-be Harry Potters off the street and get them to subscribe. It's a culmination of nothing because it's divorced from the milieu that spawned it and is in fact contemptuous of it. It is, rather, a typical dev concoction, a perfect example of the species. As I said, got bored, went home... Silvarion (who had really looked forward to running a pet class again...) :roll: "Boy's got more nerve than a bum tooth..." -- W.C. Fields

November 20, 2004, 08:35 AM	#8 (permalink)
UrAdolt Lurker	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... I have no plans to get either of the Infernal or the Doomguard at release, I solo or group up with two other people.... that's it... I'm so dissapointed :sad:

November 29, 2004, 02:55 AM	#9 (permalink)
Malevolence Registered	Hmm Greetings everyone, had me a 26 UD warlock on server 21 in the recent US open beta, and after trying almost every class available to the Horde, I think I'll stick with both UD and warlock for retail (in the EU <sigh>). So anyways, I've been keeping an eye out for posts about the Infernal and Doomguard in particular, since these high-end pets seem somewhat, er... difficult to use and just not plain worth the hassle, according to just about every post I've seen about them. Reading about how priests could also simply dispel the Enslave Demon spell cast on them disheartened me even more at first, but gave me an idea. Not sure if this has been discussed before - if it has, my humblest apolegies, but I seem to have been unable to find any posts about it - but have any groups of warlocks tried to pass around their Infernals/Doomguards between each other? Assume you have a couple warlocks teaming/raiding together. If Enslave Demon's dimishing returns are limited on a per-warlock basis, would it not be possible to simply exchange Enslaved demons every few minutes? And if so, does anyone know if exchanging Enslaved demons resets said timer for diminishing returns for the individual warlocks and demons? If it does, all it would take to really use Infernals or Doomguards well, would be 2-3 warlocks with a stopwatch each, a fast hand on Banish to help out each other (in case either warlock's Enslave Demon breaks earlier than the others', and the recast is interrupted) and a decent supply of soulshards before starting the attempt. This proceedure would of course be extremely vulnerable to latency issues, but seeing as how Tyren and Caydiem seem insistent on it taking a group to properly use Infernals and Doomguards, perhaps cooperation of this sort is what they had in mind? Again, if this has already been tried and found unfeasible, I can only excuse my ignorance with an inability to find any posts about this on either the closed or open beta boards for the past few months, where I've been lurking fairly dilligently on the US boards, waiting for an EU beta key (finally gotten my hands on one, although it's only for the final beta starting sometime in December). Malevolence, would-be vile, evil warlock

December 05, 2004, 07:45 PM	#10 (permalink)
Pcheez Member	Response from Caydiem on the Infernal / Doomguard debate... No Matter how fubar the infernal/doomguards are, l plan to get them evantually. Just call it, make sure it gets the most aggro possible so it dies before you even have to charm it 1 more time. In PVP, the sheer sight of it will cause players to attack it, as its damage is not at all negligeable. So big green's pummeling + your AOE should relly hurt an opposing PvP or PvE party. If its still alive when enslave is about to run out, get on that mount and run like the wind :lol: In short, nomatter how gimped, the infernal is still one heckofapet. Since we cant summon indoors, the impact of the inferno crater must be more significant. A longer stun and more damage. In the intro, the warlock commanded 2 infernals.....so that would be nice...even faster death ....and instant suicide when they break :D