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Old April 17, 2009, 09:48 PM   #1 (permalink)

Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

Ok, I want to have a guide for Warlock stats. It's a common question we see a lot - What's the best stat? What stat should I go for? Should I take crit over haste, haste over spell damage, when do I start dropping Hit etc.

So lets put together a thread to help curb those threads. It will be a community guide which I will edit together. If you've never been a part of a community guide before, basically you post info you know, and I put it together into a single post/guide. All credits are given to those who take part.

Writting this as the idea's just hit me, so no real order or structure yet... Idea stemmed from the discussion in this thread Which warlock stat is most important? - Page 2 - The Warlocks Den Forums. Affliction Warlock information can be learned from Dots and you: The Affliction Warlock Thread - Elitist Jerks

**********

... will be an intro post about Stats. Feel free to post anything you think should be included.

+Hit
Please note all lists start with +Hit as it's your most important stat until hit capped. You need hit because blah blah blah (will be filled in later)

(From EJ - listing here so I don't forget it)
Hit talents versus hit equip

There is some discussion about whether or not to skill hit talent Suppression. The point is: When you spec into hit, you have to leave out some other talents, like Fel Concentration or Improved Drain Soul. On the other hand, when you gear into hit, you will loose some stats as pieces of the same ilevel with no hit at all have more spell power / haste / crit.

My view of this matter is: It is very important to be hit capped. Not being hit capped will screw your rotations and cost you a lot of dps. Hit gives a very good dps increase point-wise, and 1% more hit is equivalent to some points of hit. The talents can help you to reach the hit cap faster. This is why I included both hit talents in the starter talent build.

Once you reach the cap and get better and better gear, you will reach the hit cap quite easily without the talents. The reason for this is: You need a static amount of hit rating to reach the cap. But the amount of stats on an item is increasing from ilevel to ilevel, meaning it will become easier and easier to get the rating via gear.
On the other hand, the amount of talent points you have is static (71). Most of their effects, however, scale (otherwise, the talents would be obsolete with good gear, and they surely are not). So in my opinion, it's the wiser choice to get hit capped via gear and use the talent points for things you will never get from gear.



Affliction Stats
General information on the types of Stats Affliction Warlocks look for an why. (seeking info - just a paragraph is enough).
Stat Order (please order for me)
Hit Rating
Spell Power
Haste Rating
Crit Rating
Spirit (via fel armor)
Intellect
Additional Information...
Anything else that needs to be said about the order of Affliction stats, when you need to stop worrying about one or the other, if there would be any variations to the general list above, etc.

Affliction and Haste - Can I have too much?
(From EJ at this time, if someone wants to reword/update, then please do)
The reason for this question being asked many times by affliction warlocks is the following: Most of your spells (all of them except shadow bolt and drain soul) have a 1.5s casting time or are instant casts, meaning they have a 1.5s global cooldown following the cast. Haste reduces both in the same way. But there is a hard cap, neither the casting time of a spell nor the GCD can be reduced below 1s (In fact, the casting time can be reduced below 1s, but this triggers a short GCD, extending it to 1s). This means that the majority of your spells won't benefit from haste anymore if you reach this cap.
The first question should be: Can I actually reach that cap with "normal" gear?

The formula for is:

Real Casting Time = Original Casting time /(1+Haste in percent).

As an example, 100% haste would change a two second cast to a one second cast ("100% faster").


To reduce a 1.5s cast to 1s, you would need 50% haste.

Haste is multiplicative while haste rating is not. In a raid situation, there are probably an elemental totem (+5% haste) and a moonkin aura or a retribution aura (+3% haste). Those add (or rather multiply) up to 1.05*1.03=1.0815 -> 8.15%. To get 50% haste, you would need 1.50/1.0815 = 1.387 -> 38.7% haste from haste rating, which would be 1268.97 rating points. Simply unreachable, even when you did not forget to apply your spellstone.

However, there are effects like Bloodlust/Heroism and Eradication increasing your haste by a large amount.

When Eradication procs, you would only need 1.50/(1.0815*1.20) -> 15.6% haste or 511.5 haste rating. I would consider this to be the "very soft" cap.
When Bloodlust hits, it's only 1.50/(1.0815*1.30) -> 6.7% haste or 219.3 haste rating. Obviously, when both hit at the same time, you'll need nothing: 1.50/(1.0815*1.30*1.20) -> -11.1%, so you're already way over the cap.

Does this mean we're haste capped? Not really. Most of the damage haste brings comes from casting faster shadow bolts, not from casting faster dots. In my simulation, the dps per point in haste went down to 6.04 from 7.61 when I reached the point where 1.5s casts become 1.0s casts. That's a 20% decrease in the value of haste and does not devalue haste in general as you won't have eradication/bl/heroism up all the time and even if you had, haste would still be better than crit rating.
Just don't throw your haste pot when bloodlust hits and eradication is up, and you'll be fine.



Demonology Stats
General information on the types of Stats Demonology Warlocks look for an why. (seeking info - just a paragraph is enough).
Stat Order (please order for me)
Hit Rating
Spell Power
Haste Rating
Crit Rating
Spirit (via fel armor)
Intellect
Additional Information...
Anything else that needs to be said about the order of Demonology stats, when you need to stop worrying about one or the other, if there would be any variations to the general list above, etc.



Destruction Stats
General information on the types of Stats Destruction Warlocks look for an why. (seeking info - just a paragraph is enough).
Stat Order (please order for me)
Hit Rating
Spell Power
Haste Rating
Crit Rating
Spirit (via fel armor)
Intellect
Additional Information...
Anything else that needs to be said about the order of Destruction stats, when you need to stop worrying about one or the other, if there would be any variations to the general list above, etc.


Stats to Ignore!
For all Warlocks, what stats do we ignore and why? For example ignore MP5 as it has nearly no effect on warlocks.

From EJ

For a Naxxramas starter gear / Ulduar Starter Gear , the stat-to-dps ratios of these are:
10 hit rating = 10.61 dps -> 15.85 dps
10 spell power = 11.33 dps -> 12.49 dps
10 haste rating = 6.00 dps -> 8.53 dps
10 spirit = 3.74 dps -> 4.12 dps
10 crit rating = 3.74 dps -> 5.58 dps
10 int = 1.13 dps -> 1.69 dps
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Old April 18, 2009, 02:26 PM   #2 (permalink)

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Lathiel
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Chamber of Aspects Euro PvE
Guild: Penance
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

My experience with Destro goes something like this:

Hit is a must!

(Quick story: I did one OS 25 man once with 1 point of hit off cap, we started on Vesperon, my first two spells in a row missed! What are the chances of that!?)

Spell power should be primary choice where possible.

So if you are hit capped and you have some spare gem sockets, put sp pow in them.

Haste is better in theory, but you should balance it with Crit.

In my experience (and from what I've seen a lot online), haste is better per point, but that doesn't mean you gimp out of crit! Try to find a balance. If you have Master Conjuror talent, the Spell stone is DEFINATELY better than the Fire stone. If you don't have the talent, the Fire stone is probably better to go with.

Spirit is good, but don't go considering it for any major dps increase.

If you have 4pT7 AND Life Tap glyph, Spirit actually works out equal to haste/crit, which is why so many locks have been raving over it. However, when you get some better Uludar gear and lose that 4pT7, spirit becomes about half as useful.
When I look at gear, I look at the spirit and convert it into sp pow from Fel armor (39% with talent, which i take as 40 and call it 4/10. So 40spi=16sp pow), and then I consider it's use with 4pT7 and the glyph (which is rare atm).

Intellect, increased mana pool and a bit of crit.


Not to be snuffed at. Int gives you more crit than you think. Int is generally thought as a nice bonus on gear, and not consider in gear choices.

---

I believe there is a "soft cap" for crit. I (personally) prefer crit in destro builds since it uses Ruin, and because of this, I have A LOT of crit gear. In recent raids, it has come to light that I got a huge dps increase when I converted some crit into haste, why?

The reason I saw is on my recount, after patchwerk, my crit was something like 66% raid buffed. This is a stupid amount of crit. Some raid bosses will GIVE you crit, and most procs will GIVE you crit. On Loatheb, you gain 50% increased crit chance, 16% of that is wasted on me, and that lead me to think about maybe aiming for 50% average crit chance instead.

After I moved around some trinkets, gems, and changed to Spell stone, I've seen an increase of about 300dps. I realised that I get plenty of crit from talents, imp crits, procs, raid buffs, and raid encounters to not worry about stacking crit.

THE REASON: Locks are not a class that depend on getting crits (unlike mages). On Loatheb, I would always be low on dps (even though I would top Patchwerk most times), and this wasn't due to that 16% wasted crit. I saw all the mages on top by miles, because they have a lot of crit proc dps. The only gain we get from critting is a big number thanks to Ruin, that's it. (Remember, I'm talking Destro here, Demo specs get more benefit due to pet crits and shared crit)

To summerize: I, personally, aim for 50-60% crit raid buffed. That's a nice number to aim for, and is not over the top. Haste however has a MUCH larger soft cap (33% haste, due to GCD) for us to reach, and this my friends is why haste tends to be better for Destro.

-You can get more casts off before a boss moves or phase transitions
-Our casts are comfortably higher than 1s, and so benefit greatly from haste
-The more casts you do, the more spells that have a chance to crit anyway!

I currently sit on 580 crit and 764 haste (with spell stone+talent), and I have seen the difference. This is all my own theory crafting and opinion, and what I've seen from my experience. Your raid setup may be different and some things may be harder to see, or not have as great an effect. My typical raid setup consists of:

1 boomkin for his aura, Earth and Moon, and Imp. Faerie Fire (5% crit, 13% sp damage* and 3% hit)
1 unholy DK with Ebon Plague (13% sp damage*)
1-2 s.priests with Misery and replenishment (3% hit)
1 Ele shammy with BL, ToWrath, Wrath of Air, and Elemental Oath (ToW=crit on target + 280sp pow**, and oath=6% crit)
1 survival hunter with replenishment
1 ret pally with replenishment
1-2 mages, one of which gives me FM sometimes (more crit)
and enough pallys to dish out kings, wisdom and sanc

* 13% sp damage does NOT stack with each other, nor CoElements, HOWEVER, CoE reduces boss resistances and should still be used
** 280sp pow from ToW does NOT stack with Demonic Pact (deep demo talent). For DP to be useful, the lock needs to have sp pow greater than 2800
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Last edited by Locien; April 18, 2009 at 03:04 PM..
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Old April 18, 2009, 02:54 PM   #3 (permalink)

Character Info
Nunnster
80 Gnome Warlock
Etrigg US PvE
Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

There are A lot of factors that I consider Before I change gear. In My experience what I have come to realize, that after you have become hit caped. I will go for +spell power, unless the +to Spell Crit is extremely higher on the gear that I am wearing. I personally think a 1% increase in crit is better then a 1% increase in spell power. I am not used to the spirt giving you + to spell power, so I do not no how much that really effects things. I may be way wrong in my line of thinking, but for me it works. I figure that ill make up the DPS in the crits that I will get. I will however look at my over all stats as well. I will take stam over intel, because I will just life tap away. Plus for PvP, and for tanks who dont hold aggro well, its nice to be able to take a few hits before you die. That is my two cents.
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Old April 18, 2009, 04:06 PM   #4 (permalink)

Character Info
Screwtape
80 Undead Warlock
Gilneas US PvE
Guild: Chasing Skirts
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

EDIT: Decided I wasn't adding much. Locien covered it all. Remember: Haste is clearly better than crit for all specs. Gear is about choices and there is little occasion to gem or enchant for anything but hit or spell power. The only exception is the back enchant- you should get the haste enchant unless you are a tailor, then get the lightweave.

Last edited by Screwtape; April 18, 2009 at 04:53 PM..
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Old April 19, 2009, 08:39 PM   #5 (permalink)

Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Locien View Post


* 13% sp damage does NOT stack with each other, nor CoElements, HOWEVER, CoE reduces boss resistances and should still be used
I posted this in the other thread, but figured I should also post it here:


A correction to the CoE portion and magical resistances. While it is true that CoE removes magical resistance, 99% of the bosses out there do NOT have any magical resistance that CoE can mitigate.

Now, all bosses have X amount of magic resistance to all schools per level above the attacker (X is believed to be 8). So, a ?? boss has 24 magical resistance to all schools. This is why you sometimes get partial resists. However, this magical resistance CANNOT be mitigated by anything, including spell pen, CoE, etc. Basically, this innate resistance is like armor for melee, but it's for a caster. It works out to roughly a 5% mitigation.

So, don't use CoE if someone is already providing the 13% spell damage increase. It's really not doing anything for you in terms of resistance.
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Old April 22, 2009, 12:04 PM   #6 (permalink)

Character Info
Lathiel
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Chamber of Aspects Euro PvE
Guild: Penance
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

Ah, thanks for the clarification, it has been confusing me recently. :s
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Old April 22, 2009, 01:58 PM   #7 (permalink)

Re: Warlock Stat Order - What stats do you aim for first? (Community Guide)

Something that is very important to note in this guide. There will not be a static list of what stat is better than another stat. The issue is, the more you have of a stat, the more it becomes devalued to other stats, while the other stats increase in value.


For example, for a 0/41/30 spec, in T7 gear, spell power is worth more dps per point than haste. However, in the BiS T8 gear, haste is worth more dps per point than spell power!


Rather than posting a finite list of X stat is better than Y stat, my suggestion would be to post the numbers from simcraft in terms of stat value for each spec, one set in T7 gear, the other in T8 gear. As for everything in between, warlocks will need to do some groundwork of their own to determine what upgrades to take, which path to follow, and what will best suit their spec.
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