The Depravity of Capitalism

[Katilton]

There are several viable systems of government out there, and several economic systems have been invented. Personally, I think Socialism is the way to go, but you have inherant problems with it just like you do with Capitalism and Democracy. Human nature will find a way to screw it up and take selfish advantage of whatever system is in place.

That's just the way it is.

[Devetaki]

Originally Posted by Cynic

The quickest growing and most financially successful system in human history might not be pretty, well planned or pure, but it's still the quickest growing and most financially successful system in human history. The Industrial Revolution and century following saw Communist/Totalitarian nations almost a hundred years behind capitalist technology, and starving/freezing for not going industrial.

I agree, it's not a fair system, nor a pretty one. It's easily corruptible and far too easy for a wealthy person to control. But it works better than any other system, and as long as it appeals to the need for self-advancement that most of humanity carries, it will still be successful.

Successful for whom? Those that make the big bucks or those struggling to make a living on minimum wage? If capitalism "appealed" to our need for self advancement, then all the poor people are either lazy or deserve to be poor?

MMM you should explain how successful capitalism is to all the homeless people in the United States, all the mothers, fathers and family members of people who have died in Iraq, all the displaced people from New Orleans who still don't have a home to go to, all the starving children on the African continent and all the people working for starvation wages in developing countries.

Capitalism in its essence doesn't appeal to our need for self-advancement, in the end, it actually stunts growth. Oil companies that refuse to invest in renewable energy, all the car makers that refuse to invest in creating cars that get better miles per gallon of gasoline or that run on other things besides gasoline, drug companies that refuse to research new drugs because they don't make a profit, etc. If it doesn't make somebody money, then it doesn't happen.

The only thing that capitalism appeals to is our need to survive - if you don't work, then you don't earn money, then you can't make it. Few carrots and a bunch of big sticks.

[badkarma138]

Originally Posted by Devetaki

Successful for whom? Those that make the big bucks or those struggling to make a living on minimum wage? If capitalism "appealed" to our need for self advancement, then all the poor people are either lazy or deserve to be poor?

taker a look at those considered poor in the US. I am serious. now take a look at those considered poor in most every non capitalist country in the world. which is better off? While I can not speak for people that are currently eating tree bark to survive in North Korea, I can say for sure that I will take minimum wage in the US over some socialists dream of a workers paradise that will inevitably lead to tyranny, as history has proven time and time again.

MMM you should explain how successful capitalism is to all the homeless people in the United States

what does this have to do with capitalism?

all the mothers, fathers and family members of people who have died in Iraq

what does that have to do with capitalism?

all the displaced people from New Orleans who still don't have a home to go to

Again, what does that have to do with capitalism? Unless you are suggesting that hurricanes dont hit socialist countries...?

all the starving children on the African continent and all the people working for starvation wages in developing countries.

yeah, I suppose African nations are the bastions of capitalist economies. oh wait..

Capitalism in its essence doesn't appeal to our need for self-advancement, in the end, it actually stunts growth. Oil companies that refuse to invest in renewable energy

How much has Haliburton, or any oil company, invested into such research?

**edited to add...
and they are oil companies for petes sake. We do not expect dairy's to invest in or research soda pop, why do we expect OIL companies to research or invest in non-oil company related things?

all the car makers that refuse to invest in creating cars that get better miles per gallon of gasoline or that run on other things besides gasoline

I know, I mean it isn't like we have the option of buying cars that run on electricity or biofuels nowadays! oh, wait again...


dammit, i KNEW i would regret this.

[Avaunt]

This isn't the website I normally go to for my political debates, but I'm here atm. So here we go with some quick thoughts (my treatise on eco-theo-philo-socio-political matters is still a work in progress).

The idea with Capitalism is that the Free Market can accomplish tasks efficiently because it is driven by Competition. This makes sense because human beings, like other animals, are naturally self-interested (as opposed to simply selfish, important distinction). Competition drives the natural world, and so it makes sense functionally. What you have to ask yourself is, does it make sense morally? I don't know that the natural world is the first place I'd look for morality - it's a cruel world out there.

That's an even bigger question, so let's drop morality for the moment and just look at whether capitalism really does work functionally. Ideally the twin forces of supply & demand will dictate what trends survive, and those trends should favor the most efficient system. The problem is that in the real world, both of those forces can be (and are) manipulated. Marketing creates demand independent of the product's usefulness. Government subsidies restrict or encourage supply. And a Laissez-Faire government is no better, since then billionaire tycoons can manipulate the markets on their own, quashing the competition that is meant to fuel this whole machine. Business don't exist to provide products and services; they exist to generate profit - consumer be damned.

It is certainly true that an individual can act in their own personal self-interest, and in doing so also benefit the larger society. But the reverse is also true - an individual can act against their self-interest in favor of the interests of the society, and in doing so benefit themselves.

The you.S. is not a strictly capitalist system. We charge taxes. We provide socialist services like infrastructure, law enforcement, education, and healthcare (well, some healthcare). The post office is somewhere in between, since it's actually completely self-funded. We seem to be doing pretty well as a general rule, present circumstances notwithstanding. I believe that a hybrid system is the best - capitalism with a safety net.

I'm tempted to reply to Badkarma since I have answers for most of his points, but I'll let Devetaki get first crack, since he was there first. But to all those who think the you.S. is doing as well as we are because our economic system is the best, as yourself this: Would that be the case if we hadn't had a head start with millions of slave laborers and a continent of natural resources to plunder? And yes, Badkarma, that sad part of our history has *everything* to do with capitalism.

[Dakotarick]

I am not going to get into the human nature debate but can give some input into renewable energy and large oil corporations.

I work in the meteorological tower industry and have done a lot of work setting up systems for a few of the large oil companies. These systems are used for collecting wind data to determine prospective sites for wind energy and to make sure they are operating efficiently once they are up.

Do a Google search on BP Wind Energy and it may give you an idea what some of the companies are doing.

I spent $120 to fill up my pickup this morning so save your breath on the record profits argument I don’t like it either.

F-250 with a 36 Gal tank @ $3.90 per gallon (diesel).

[cyan10101]

$120 to fill up your truck? How many gallons is that and how big is your pickup truck? That number doesn't seem accurate. If gas is 4 dollars where you live, and you had a 30 gallon tank maybe. I don't know if they make those though.

[Absalom]

*waits for Akasha to CC this thread*

[badkarma138]

Originally Posted by Avaunt

I'm tempted to reply to Badkarma since I have answers for most of his points, but I'll let Devetaki get first crack, since he was there first. But to all those who think the you.S. is doing as well as we are because our economic system is the best, as yourself this: Would that be the case if we hadn't had a head start with millions of slave laborers and a continent of natural resources to plunder? And yes, Badkarma, that sad part of our history has *everything* to do with capitalism.

Oh, I agree. Slavery did indeed have an impact on our development as a country. I don't know where you got the idea that I would think otherwise. Especially from a post in which nothing was said about that issue. But here is a factor you are not considering. We, the US, is not the only country to have slavery in our history. yes we benefited from slave labor, but most every other country did also and had the same benefits. Nor are we the only country to have a continent of resources at our disposal.

here is what I have seen in this thread so far. I have seen people complain that other groups or companies are not doing enough to suit them. I have not seen anyone volunteer an answer, nor have I seen anyone volunteer there own time, effort or resources to attempt to make whatever changes they deem needed. Instead, people have simply complained that what they want has not yet been handed to them by the oil companies or the pharmaceutical companies or the government.

meh, I am not going to debate socio-economic issues on a board for warlocks. I frequent a few political debate forums for that.

[mavric240]

*start rant

Where is written that life is or should be fair? Nature in its purist form is not fair and dare I say cruel. Capitalist society's are the only ones doing well, while all the others have and are failing. Until a better system comes along I'll stick with what works. Those that want will get thru actions, those that want what others have will complain and demand until someone gives it to them. Entrepreneur's will endeavor to make their wants and dreams come to reality thru hard work and planning. America is in the start of its fall because we are shifting from Capitalism to socialism. Somewhere we have forgotten that we have to work hard and make our own way in life. Our government is getting more and more control of our daily lives and many have adopted a "cradle to grave" mind set. This will be the undoing of this once great system of free enterprise.

Also people need to learn the difference between what a "profit" is and what a "profit margin" is. Before they start condemning a company on the money they make I would suggest using Goggle and look it up. Oh and one more thing, People complain about the cost of gas but they drive huge gas guzzlers. Do you really need that Hummer with a 40 gal gas tank? Can't we walk to the corner store instead of driving to it? Why complain about $3.39 for a gallon of gas but find it reasonable to pay $32.00 for a Blu-Ray DVD, $ 59.99 for a PS3 game, or $12.99 a month for WOW and another $49.99 for Cable internet access? Stop the crap people take ownership of your life and make it what you want thru hard work and dedication. No one forces us to be stewards of our lives, but it is a choice we all need to make. Those that make that choice, those that take ownership are the ones that succeed in life and have what they want! I know because I made that decision a long ago.

*stop rant
*shakes head while walking away

[Carnos]

Originally Posted by Katilton

There are several viable systems of government out there, and several economic systems have been invented. Personally, I think Socialism is the way to go, but you have inherant problems with it just like you do with Capitalism and Democracy. Human nature will find a way to screw it up and take selfish advantage of whatever system is in place.

That's just the way it is.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

and

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

You got to love the French.