Energy Crisis Solved?

[badkarma138]

the EV1 production was killed because GM calculated that they could never make a profit on the car. Less than 1,000 were made I think. But that does not mean GM gave up on the idea, either. I believe they did take the concept and knowledge along when they started on the volt hybrid. 40 miles on battery, then combustion engine to recharge it. With an estimated cost somewhere around $40,000 (supposedly $30,000 with a tax credit) it is still a pretty pricey car and not a very realistic purchase for many people. Eventually I am sure the price will drop, but thats probably a long ways away.

[capmcnasty]

At that same time honda had an electric vehicle too, there were many different alternative options being tried out. All of the electric options were lease only. There were and still are the natural gas cars from then, but all the electric ones which would be selling well now were only available via lease options. I did get to drive one of the honda ones for a weekend. It was fun and quiet. Then they just disappeared. :(

If you want efficient transportation get a bicycle, I believe it's still the most efficient use of energy for mobile transportation we have to date. And it's healthy too.

[gawdless]

Hydrogen cars are good in theory but I've read to make the hydrogen they use natural gas. So less pollution but you are just trading one natural resource for another and they will charge an arm and a leg for the crap just because they can. There will be some reason for it though... who produces the most natural gas because I'm sure they need a little democracy in their lives.

[Verdani]

To my knowledge there are several groups trying to mimic photosynthesis and use it to produce O2 and H2 (did a small project in physical chemistry some years ago in one of those groups).

Wouldn't solar panel produced electricity be a better way to go? Either directly powering the cars, or just producing the electricity which is used for charging the battery. In the latter I guess one of the limiting factors is the batteries required for it to be convenient.. And a fast way of recharging the cars.
I really like the idea of solar panels even though I'm from a country where they wouldn't year 'round.

[capmcnasty]

at this point solar panels are not anywhere near effiicient enought to power a car for a long period of time with carrying much of any weight and also to account for less than perfect sun.

batteries while don't produce much polution cept for some gases are very toxic/hazardous when you do finally have to dispose of them.

and while natural gas might sound good, it does not burn that much cleaner, and will yield a lot less miles per volume stored and in most cases is just a by-product of gasoline as it is emitted by the oil and often is just burned off making the gasoline. So still the same oil companies.

[Kroog]

This might be off topic (sorry), but it might be along the same lines.

The Walter Turbine
Walter achieved his remarkable results by using Perhydrol, a nearly pure hydrogen-peroxide solution, as an oxydizer. This was run through a catalysing system, which broke down the hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) into hydrogen and oxygen, in the process producing high pressure steam and oxygen at a very high temperature. The creation of the steam used up both of the hydrogen atoms and one of the oxygen atoms, leaving a free oxygen atom in the mixture. Since the temperature of the gases was hot enough to sustain combustion, diesel fuel was injected, which used the free oxygen atom. This increased both the heat and pressure of the steam. The steam was then used to power a turbine, which combined elements of both gas and Parsons (steam) turbine technology.
Unfortunately for the Kriegsmarine's submarine service—but fortunately for the Allies—the Walter system had nearly as many problems as benefits. The Perhydrol fuel was extremely corrosive, requiring the use of special fuel lines. Another problem, which was actually discovered by the Japanese, who used essentially the same system to power some torpedoes (including a prototype of the Kaiten "human torpedo" variant) was that, unlike conventional fuels, the Perhydrol required fuel lines without any right angle turns. The Perhydrol would sometimes "pile up" in the bends of such lines and spontaneously combust, with the obvious disastrous results.
Another drawback was that the Walter system was extremely thirsty. One reason for the larger hulls was simply that an enormous amount of fuel would have to be carried if the boats were to have sufficient range to be effective in combat.

After the end of World War II, several navies continued development work on the Walter turbine system. In the end, all dropped the system as too dangerous. Most did adopt a number of Professor Walter's ideas in the area of hull design. The advent of nuclear propulsion in the 1950s rendered the further development of the Walter system unneccesary.
Curiously, in the last few years, there has been a renewed interest in air-independent propulsion for submarines. Modern developments, however, tend toward the use of Stirling Cycle (heat) engines and fuel cell technology. There was also a Russian AIP sub built during World War II, which used a conventional diesel engine that drew its oxygen supply from compressed gas bottles. Like the Walters, it was considerably hampered by capacity problems.

[Kiralyn]

Most of the commentary I've read on this elsewhere (caught it on slashdot a couple days ago if I remember right) has blatantly called it a hoax. There is no known scientific background to doing what they are doing.

As for everyone complaining about oil companies, guess what? THEY HATE THESE PRICES! Anyone who knows basic economics realizes that the prices aren't being driven by demand, and that current prices are so high that demand is being pushed down. Anyone who has worked in the oil field knows that there are not huge profit margins in the business, and that exploratory drilling is an enormous investment for potentially no gain.

If you want to know where the money you are paying for gas is going, it's going into exploration and research. Keep an eye on the news (houston business journal is a good place to watch) and you'll see that the big contracts are going to companies like Transocean that are doing exploratory drilling. On the research side, its development of new tools that will lets us dig more wells from a single site, and get more out of those wells, as well as doing it cheaper.

Believe me, the media image of a bunch of guys in cowboy hats with cigars isn't how these things actually work.

[Rizob]

Originally Posted by Anij

Go take a look outside your window at the nearest tree and look at the top of it. All those little green things are called leaves. They break apart hydrogen and oxygen atoms every day without outside sources of fuels. Or, more accurately I should say what we consider alternative fuels currently. Yes it's possible to extract energy from water, nature has been doing it for thousands of years, but man's science is still a bit slow on achieving it.

Plants use a process called photosynthesis which involves the conversion of light energy into chemical energy (photons->electrons->water+CO2->sugars+O2). It's not water-->H2 + O2 + energy.

Solar energy is a major alternative fuel (among wind, solar, geothermal). The problem is that the technology is still new and solar panels have been expensive and inefficient. They're now becoming cost competitive with conventional energy sources. Still not enough to power a real car. Some stores are using them to line their roofs and provide some extra electricity though.

/The Walter Turbine/

High concentrations of hydrogen peroxide is highly corrosive and explosive (the over the counter stuff is only <3%, the high conc stuff can actually be used as rocket fuel). Definitely not safe for cars.

Plus manufacturing H2O2 costs more than oil. Probably higher environmental cost as well.

[Devicus]

Originally Posted by badkarma138

the EV1 production was killed because GM calculated that they could never make a profit on the car. Less than 1,000 were made I think. But that does not mean GM gave up on the idea, either. I believe they did take the concept and knowledge along when they started on the volt hybrid. 40 miles on battery, then combustion engine to recharge it. With an estimated cost somewhere around $40,000 (supposedly $30,000 with a tax credit) it is still a pretty pricey car and not a very realistic purchase for many people. Eventually I am sure the price will drop, but thats probably a long ways away.

I saw the film and I'm SURE that there was a battery that did MUCH more than 40 miles. It wasn't put in the EV one either. There's definately better than 40 miles range as a possibility.

On track though, a hydrogen cell car still needs it's cells made, and to create these would require energy. However if the cells are there to provide a reliable supply, less reliable and constant sources can create the energy for that. So it's sort of a solar or tide powered car, but only with the cell as an intermediary.

To make this a solution rather than just a way to delay the problem, however, requires a lot more technology than we have.

Anyway in theory if they make this work the whole of society could run like that surely? Lots of hydrogen cell generators providing a constant, reliable national power supply while reliable sources make the hydrogen. All this will be the only way soon. I really hope this huge global oil price spike is the push we need. I think for a lot of people it is.

I'm pretty sure it's possible to create hydrogen during electrolysis. So all you need to do is take the guilty metal and turn it back in to ore (obviously you want to make this as clean as possible) and continue electrolysis. I'm pretty sure if I can dream that up in 5 minutes it could be done slickly and viably given enough research and engineering.

Of course all this takes energy, but we've answered where that'd come from.

[mcgee84]

Originally Posted by fresnosmokey

I wish that they'd mass market the thing and get some energy company (doesn't have to be an oil company, could be your local utility company) to start building a hydrogen refueling infrastructure. We are going to have to switch to something besides oil sooner or later anyway. Might as well be now while people are worried about supply, prices, pollution, and global warming. In fact, it might be easier just for those reasons.

You ever look into where we get most of our hydrogen from?