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February 16, 2009, 12:54 PM
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#61 (permalink) |
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Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
I'm really surprised how this forum is turning to taking shots when I'm trying to use real numbers in the game and ask real questions rather than just say "Too bad! Deal with it!" It never used to be that way. As to the hissy fit and childish replies, it's not as if I said "OMFG he stole my LOOTZ!" People see and hear what they want to hear. You want to think I'm being a baby because I didn't get a drop, go ahead. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture. I'm sorry you can't see that. My apologies for trying to discuss this and ask for a discussion and legitimate points in return. Sadly about half of the posts in this thread ignored the points I made and the questions I asked. I expect that in other forums, but I had a better opinion of the Den. My mistake. As for Coud, I argued your numbers because it makes no sense to randomly throw numbers out to make a point when those numbers are nowhere near representative of what actually exists in the game. I suppose I could have done the same but I'm sure that would just cause even more backlash (but then I would actually deserve it). If your numbers were even remotely close I wouldn't have argued it. The fact is that Blizzard has not noticeably increased the number of cloth drops in raids to accomodate for another class rolling on them as you say that have. Don't believe me? Go look at the loot table yourself and compare them to The Burning Crusade raids. Was that not your point? You guys have fun with this thread. Sorry, but it no longer has much of anything to do with my original point and I stand to gain nothing but further frustration by reading it. /Sigh |
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February 16, 2009, 05:05 PM
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#62 (permalink) |
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Character Info
perndog 80 Undead Warlock arygos US PvE Guild: Umber Lamo Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: afflic |
Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
Yes i understand where you all come from but it is just a game and I hate to say it but I'm used to getting out rolled by everyone the only loot i have gotten thus far has been when no one wants it my rolls are so bad. I'm in what people call a buffer guild where people get all the loot they want from 10 man and go to the 25 man guilds. I never complain we all get a chance at loot and i have lost plenty of gear to druids i mean a lot of gear but its the way things go. We all want gear just have to wait for it and be patient this is a long game and we will all end up with the loot we want if not in guild or pugs. Maybe im too laid back but thats just me and i have always been that way  just the other day in a 25 man pug i was trying to pay people off to get gear i was just sick of poor rolls 2500 gold for a t7.5 token ha ha had 6 people ready to get paid and the 7th guy who didnt want the money roll a 96 ha ha all i could do was laugh. pern |
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February 16, 2009, 08:06 PM
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#63 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Vaell 80 Blood Elf Warlock Scarshield Legion Euro RP PvP Guild: The Final Contingency Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/41/30 |
Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
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February 19, 2009, 07:21 PM
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#64 (permalink) | |
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Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
Quote:
1) After looking at the items, I see a lot of leather items that are equivalent to the cloth items. Hence it would make no sense for Moonkins to loot cloth. This is your point. BUT there are also 2 important points: 2) All best-in-slot gear is either T7 or cloth for Moonkins 3) None of the leather has +hit ... not a single Naxx item According to 2) and 3) it makes no sense for Moonkins NOT to loot cloth. In fact, looking more closely, 2) and 3) are the same, because all the best-in-slot gear has +hit. And finally: 4) While Naxx 10 has relatively little cloth +hit gear, Naxx 25 has lots of +hit gear: - 13 leather items for casters (all without +hit: those are good for both Balance and Restauration druids) - 13 cloth items for casters without +hit - 11 cloth items for casters with +hit <--- a lot of them are the best-in-slot/second best-in-slot Hence I suspect Blizzard intended Moonkins to use cloth for +hit gear, that's why they did not create the equivalent leather items (which they did for the others). It makes perfect sense, since the +hit items would not be good for Resto druids, hence would be Moonkin-only. In any case, I conclude that the fair loot rules for Moonkins are the following (IMHO): - A moonkin can roll on a cloth item if it has +hit, exactly like clothies. - A moonkin can roll on a cloth item without +hit only if no clothie need it <- that's because often there exists a equivalent leather item. Last edited by Crescendo; February 19, 2009 at 07:37 PM.. |
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March 01, 2009, 01:39 PM
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#65 (permalink) | |
 
Status: Subscriber
Character Info
Dyson 80 Human Warlock Scilla US PvP Guild: Eden Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
Quote:
However, there is something else to consider I believe that should require boomkins to pass to clothies on +hit cloth armor if need arises. Boomkins need less +hit to reach cap The main one, is plainly that +hit is not as precious to a boomkin as it is to a warlock or a mage. Balance druids have +4% hit built into their tree whereas we only have +3% and warlocks have to spec 2x over to get +3% hit for both the afflic and destro spells when both are used in any rotation. And on top of that boomkins also get a built in +1% additional later in their talent tree (a raid buff but still 1% nonetheless). So in a typical situation, with no boomkins of spriests around, a boomkin can always rely on +5% hit. A mage or warlock can never assume more than +3% even if the probability goes up higher that the proper class mix will appear in a 25man. Anecdotally, I armoried one boomkin I group with who is only partially naxx25 geared, has all leather caster gear (no cloth), and yet sits at his hit cap just fine when you consider he has +5% in his talent tree to hit and gems his yellow or yellow hybrids with +crit and no +hit and no need to enchant for extra +hit either other than the typical icewalker on boots (which is +crit also).Yet i would guess as this boomkin was leveling up, he would have also had gem and enchant options to round himself out. In summary, I am still skeptical of boomkin having equal priority to roll on cloth +hit gear. Simply put, when +hit means less to a boomkin than it does to a warlock or mage, it hardly seems fair the boomkin has *equal* priority to the gear assuming both are starting out with the same +sp and +hit on their gear. |
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March 01, 2009, 04:56 PM
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#66 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Seduktra 80 Blood Elf Warlock Proudmoore US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/41/30 |
Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
Quote:
It's been sooo frustrating battling the other cloth casters and healers over everything, not to mention our Tier seems to be very popular also - compared to Hunter/Shaman/DK, which of course drops all the time too. Where did all the DKs go, btw? Why are our raids full of mages and locks? grrr PS: Our 1 and only Moonkin is very reasonable and considerate, he won't touch cloth until everyone else gets theirs...which, of course, will be a while 
Last edited by Seduktra; March 01, 2009 at 04:58 PM.. |
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March 03, 2009, 11:39 AM
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#67 (permalink) |
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Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
This is my very first post on these forums and only because this exact same thing happened to me. A Druid rolled on a cloth item that had +hit on it during the initial "mainspec" roll and won. I was the only one rolling against them and questioned the roll as a true "mainspec". The druids reply was "I want it, I need it and I am taking it." Not much I could do as this Druid was the GL of the Guild that I was running with. A little later in the run, another cloth healer item dropped and I figured the one Priest in the group was a shoe-in for the drop. We did the "mainspec" roll and the Priest was beatout by a Pally healer. It was at this point that a discussion took place and it was decided that the definition of "mainspec" needed to be clarified. We decided that "mainspec" would take into account what your character's gear was mainly spec'd for. Meaning that a Pally is mainspec'd for plate, a Druid for leather, and so on and so forth. We found that this was the fairest way for each class to be treated. If nobody rolled for "mainspec", then the item opened up to "offspec" rolling. Then, the item was open game so to speak. Since that time, the RL makes the loot policy very clear as the raid is getting ready to start. And if my post offends ANYONE, please accept my apology beforehand. Seems that this topic can easily fire some up. |
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March 03, 2009, 12:37 PM
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#68 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Hike 80 Undead Warlock Blackwing Lair US PvP Guild: Occam's Raiders Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
my opinion is pretty basic even though i get really pissed off when druids roll on *my* cloth gear. if you need it. roll for it. that's bottom line. if a piece of gear drops, and it's a clear upgrade over what the druid already has, and that stats match, no matter his spec, he should be able to roll on it. what i don't think is fair is when a player "needs" (or rolls) on a piece of gear that may be an upgrade, but has the wrong stats. in other words if joe-the-warlock is rocking the water-drenched robe with some garbage gems in it, and a hot piece of mp5 cloth gear drops......... he should not roll on it. i see this crap all the time. in fact i saw a druid rolling on every piece of leather in a naxx pug one time because his gear was absolutely so awful (800 dps!!!!) that ANYTHING was an upgrade, whether it was for his spec or no. this, is frustrating, and unfair. but, as was pointed out, if the piece of gear has the stats that someone needs, and those are a clear upgrade over what he's wearing, he has the right to roll on it... i think this holds true for druids wearing cloth, warriors wearing mail, or what have you... |
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March 08, 2009, 08:54 PM
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#69 (permalink) | |
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Re: Frustrated: Druids rolling on cloth
Quote:
* druid: spirit=0.2 crit=0.7 hit=2.0 * warlock: spirit=0.6 crit=0.7 hit=1.5 (affli) to 2.2 (destro) - The problem is that non-hit gear for moonkins is full of spirit... as you can see from the coefficients, a moonkin values hit 10 times more than spirit; whereas a warlock values hit 3 times more than spirit. Therefore if the moonkin is not hit capped, he will generally benefits more from replacing spirit gear with hit gear, than a warlock (and the raid dps will increase by more). - Another problem which I have not mentionned is that a few cloth items have +crit (or +haste?) and no spirit ; those are more beneficial to moonkins I believe, for the same reason (trade of spirit for crit or haste). Those are hard to get ; and they are even more beneficial to mages (and probably discipline priests). Now, if we are going into the lower hit cap issue; actually even without Naxx items, I was drowning in hit as a warlock. This leads to the problem of finding the hit gear which is the most beneficial (see the case of shadow priests shadowpriest.com View topic - Best HitGear available). Things are getting complicated if you start considering that the second T7 item with hit is harder to get for moonkins (it is the head item vs the robe for warlocks). Overall it is not logical to have someone who is hit capped to roll on a hit item if someone else is not ; in BC - I experienced the fact that once hit capped, I would need on average two items to have an actually upgrade (one to go below hit cap with one good non-hit item, and then one excellent +hit item ; it's overall a headache). Maybe one way to handle the issue is to have the non-hit capped player get priority over the others for such items... This addresses the fact that moonkins would reach easily hit cap. |
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