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Old May 13, 2010, 01:04 PM   #1 (permalink)

3.3 rDPS Demonology BIS List

Basically I would like to start discussion on what is exactly the BIS for a rDPS demonology lock, whos priority is on High Demonic Pact uptimes, and thus high SP boosting.

There is a Demonology BIS list floating around on simcraft (here, but as far as I understand that focus is on pDPS instead of rDPS, forgoing any spirit gear in preference for haste. Besides the obvious limitations of this, the view for this thread is Demonology is a "Buffer" spec. This thread is to establish a BIS list for rDPS.

To this end, the BIS set list needs to fit this criteria.

Highest Possible Demonic Pact Uptimes
Highest feasiable Demonic Pact (Not to the point where you gimp yourself massively. Your dps does count)

I've attempted to put together a "BIS list" based on my own assumptions (which, hey could be very wrong, hence why I'm here)

Proposed BIS rDPS Demonology Profiler - Wowhead
(Yes I know 1 point under hit capped)


Re T10 Chest or T10 Legs


  SPCritHasSpiritIntStaminaHit       
Plaguebringer + T10 Chest 47612224210278278104       
Sanguine Robe + T0 Legs 468122118144278278106       
Difference -80-124134002       

With the sanguine robes your trading 124 haste for 134 spirit essentially.

Let me clarify this with some simcraft models 10,000 iterations.

Sanguine Robes + T10 Legs

Dynamic BuffsStartRefreshIntervalTriggerUp-TimeBenefitSP IncreaseAverage SP Increase
ashen_band_of_endless_destruction4.4073.7sec73.7sec14%14%28539.9
dislodged_foreign_object5.3058.7sec58.7sec35%35%Variable230
life_tap_glyph4996.3sec23.9sec99%98%208.2204.036
lightweave_embroidery5063.5sec63.5sec25%25%29573.75
muradins_spyglass14730.0sec0.6sec100%100%200200
wild_magic_potion_sp100.0sec0.0sec5%5%20010

T10 Chest + Plaguebringer Legs

Dynamic BuffsStartRefreshIntervalTriggerUp-TimeBenefitSP IncreaseAverage SP Increase
ashen_band_of_endless_destruction4.4073.7sec73.7sec14%14%28539.9
dislodged_foreign_object5.3058.7sec58.7sec35%35%Variable230
life_tap_glyph4996.3sec23.9sec99%98%178.2174.636
lightweave_embroidery5063.5sec63.5sec25%25%29573.75
muradins_spyglass14730.0sec0.6sec100%100%200200
wild_magic_potion_sp100.0sec0.0sec5%5%20010

Sanguine Robes + T10 Legs  T10 Chest + Plaguebringer Legs Difference
Buffed SP 49134865 48
Average Sp Boost 757.686728.286 29.4
Average DPact  567.0686559.3286 7.74
pDPS 1336313377 -14

Coming to the conlcusion, I think, that the 14DPS gained from wearing the Plague bringer's pants is vastly outweighed from the 4.8sp increase given to a raid.

Limitations of this model
1) Simcraft records Demonic Pact Uptime as 100% in both cases, in reality this is never the case
2) Dislodged Foreign Object average sp increase - I can't find any hard evidence on it yet (However, as DLFO is included in both models, it shouldn't affect the answer)

Also can the moderater move this in to the appropriate forums please?

What are your views? Do you have any changes?

Points to consider.

*Whats the BIS weapons pre LK 25HM (as most guilds won't progress that far for a while) - Dying Light?

*Which Trinkets are best - POTNL or DLFO? - Initial thoughts - the shorted ICD of DLFO would place it miles ahead of POTNL, due to miss-synchronisation of demonic pact and POTNL procs.

*Forgoing the 4pc bonus in place of 277 gear in place of the 4pc bonus


Changelog
12/05/2010 Added Section on Chest or Legs discussion

Last edited by emuron; May 13, 2010 at 02:15 PM..
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Old May 13, 2010, 01:42 PM   #2 (permalink)

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Heris
70 Human Warlock
Khadgar Euro RP Guild: Xeon
Profile: Blizzard Armory
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Nice thread Emu. I agree with the trinkets from posts I've read..

The staff of dying light is great the stats and 3 sockets plus the haste..

How I look at my Demon spec I want to buff to raid with lots of Spell Power but at the same time not nerf myself too much.. This is why I kept my 4x bonus..

My own perosnal choice was to get the Plague Scientist leggings cus of the sockets and stats.. Plus I recently got my 277 tier chest which I think is BiS atm.. dont quote me on that..

Also got to understand it's getting the drops you want in a guild with mages/priests, boonkins, etc are after the same stuff.. sadly my guild isnt server first and were not farming all the bosses just yet :P

The profiler you have Is almost my own char expect the legs,chest but basically them items is what I is thought about and is after :P

The staff you linked wtf thats Herois 25 man LK lol HAHAHAHAHAHAHA like hell i'd be seeing that HAHAHAHHA

we take what we can get What I say.. never got 8/8 tier 7 in The Burning Crusade cus of the amount of lootwhores and bloody turn over of people :P So i dont expect to get alot of them items mate
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Old May 13, 2010, 02:04 PM   #3 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heris View Post
The staff of dying light is great the stats and 3 sockets plus the haste..
I would argue that the weapon is second BIS. I would have to run some models on it first.

Quote:
How I look at my Demon spec I want to buff to raid with lots of Spell Power but at the same time not nerf myself too much.. This is why I kept my 4x bonus..
Aim of the thread is to establish the best rDPS BIS list.

Quote:
Also got to understand it's getting the drops you want in a guild with mages/priests, boonkins, etc are after the same stuff.. sadly my guild isnt server first and were not farming all the bosses just yet :P
Nope, and I wouldn't expect someone to get all this this ASAP. Its just theory crafting at the moment. Of course guild politics can get in the way of you attaining this gear.

Last edited by emuron; May 13, 2010 at 02:11 PM..
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Old May 13, 2010, 11:00 PM   #4 (permalink)

Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

some of the frequent lock posters on EJ had a discussion similar to this. rdps is my current spec so i'm very glad to see it being addressed here.
Have you seen this stuff?

go to rdps links

3.3 Compendium - Elitist Jerks

What Madlax and Warlocomotif came up with:
Profiler - Wowhead

this is slightly dated so i'm interested in if you think any updates should be made.

after reading the stuff on mmochamp about the trinkets dropped in ruby sanctum, i still think icc ones may be superior but we'll have to see what the icds are and stuff.....

as far as the heroic LK weap issue i think they said its too unattainable to be included in their analysis but as the buff continues i doubt that will be the case. BiS sets are mostly for guidance not something everyone expects to attain. constant discussion and options are helpful.

Last edited by Lorewalk; May 13, 2010 at 10:55 PM..
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Old May 14, 2010, 09:28 AM   #5 (permalink)

Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

One way to look into this is that assuming there's at least 5 other caster dps in raid, each gets 10% of your SP, the benefit to rDPS from your SP and spirit could be considered to be 150% of your pDPS weight. Int and Sta contributes little to demonic pact too, but this is minor. So you could get stat weights from simcraft and add 50% to SP and spirit weights to consider further upgrades, but after couple upgrades the stat weights can change again. Obviously not all casters scale same way with SP etc so 150% is just rough estimate, but average raid probably has more than 6 caster dps.

To actually measure rDPS gain, you can just add 5 other characters to same simulation page and run them together and see total rDPS. I've tried this with 1demo, 2destro and 3 affli locks in same raid, but couldn't figure out yet which demo gear would be top rDPS but the default personal BiS profile in simcraft seemed to be pretty high this way too.

Gain from using non-tier gear would seem to be 200-300 rDPS so not worth it.
Trinkets are most tricky part cause of DP, proc trinkets give more unstable DP values, but if timed right it can be huge boost and in the long run it will average out but BiS choices now are pretty limited to DFO and either spyglass or phylactery.

For weapon, if I counted it right the choice seems quite easy, MH+OH gives about same SP and haste as staff, but has extra 55 crit:
Archus:
1052 SP (81+78+893)
141 Spirit = 91.5 SP
141 haste
188 Stamina
188 Intellect

Bloodsurge+Sundial
1103 SP (63+28+893+119)
68 Spirit = 44 SP
55 crit
139 haste
159 Stamina
159 Intellect

Most people can only dream of getting those weapons, but looking at non-LK25hc loot, mh+oh seems like could still beat any staff.
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Old May 14, 2010, 11:05 AM   #6 (permalink)

Character Info
makill
85 Undead Warlock
Sargeras Euro PvP
Guild: n The rk
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

With the recent change to DP is muradin still the best trinket for DP ? I know that it's hard to time phylactery but if you have it at least for 25 sec DP with it I was wondering if it will not outweight muradin.

To be honest I'm quite sceptic about the real value of rdps profile. This seems to be a lot of work to bring a couple of sp to the raid while loosing dps(330 according to simcraft with your profile and pdps BIS).
Don't get me wrong, rdps seems fine to bring more sp to the raid but in the average do the raid really gain so much more than if you were rising your own dps ?

I don't want to be called selfish but sometimes people are too extreme in the "survivability and raid" approach that prevent them to even think that a rdps profile could be less interesting than pdps.
So it would be nice to see some hard numbers that show how much this could rise raid dps.
I want to believe in this approach but I need more than juste belief.
So as a cartesian mind, I need a proof that is really usefull and worth the pain.

Last edited by thetrueavatar; May 14, 2010 at 11:09 AM..
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Old May 14, 2010, 11:25 AM   #7 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Ok I think that profile above is pretty close to rDPS BiS:
Profiler - Wowhead

Now I replaced Rigormortis with Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony (LK hc) and neck with Amulet of the Silent Eulogy and removed 1 hit gem. And simcraft it with 2destr+3affli locks and compare with personal BiS profile from simcraft:

SimulationCraft for World of Warcraft release 3.3.3 ( iterations=10000, max_time=300, optimal_raid=1, smooth_rng=0 ) 20% variation

DPS Ranking:
82566 100.0% Raid
14082 17.0% Warlockt10560015_1
14079 17.0% Warlockt10560015_3
14077 17.0% Warlockt10560015_2
13610 16.5% Warlockt10001358_4
13608 16.5% Warlockt10001358_5
13199 16.0% T10005615rdps_LKhc (= Profiler - Wowhead with LK sword and hit neck)
Core Stats: strength=320|69(10) agility=329|77(10) stamina=2196|1667(1427) intellect=1859|1586(1427) spirit=1023|802(614) health=29092|24148 mana=32289|28071
Spell Stats: power=5011|3466(3466) hit=15.14%|14.14%(371) crit=48.27%|41.63%(937) penetration=0|0(0) haste=47.73%|29.28%(960) mp5=0|0(0)

Personal BiS DPS Ranking:
82482 100.0% Raid
14008 17.0% Warlockt10560015_3
14006 17.0% Warlockt10560015_2
14000 17.0% Warlockt10560015_1
13536 16.4% Warlockt10001358_4
13531 16.4% Warlockt10001358_5
13489 16.3% Warlockt10005615 (= Profiler - Wowhead )
Core Stats: strength=320|69(10) agility=329|77(10) stamina=2214|1684(1442) intellect=1859|1586(1427) spirit=385|222(51) health=29278|24323 mana=32289|28071
Spell Stats: power=4746|3447(3447) hit=15.07%|14.07%(369) crit=53.17%|46.54%(1162) penetration=0|0(0) haste=56.67%|37.55%(1231) mp5=0|0(0)

Unless I got something wrong, it seems that going with raid DPS BiS gear, instead of personal DPS BiS, is only upgrade if there's at least 6 (highly geared) caster dps in raid.

ps. there is a bug in simcraft that it doesn't add socket bonus of some heroic items, so i had to add them manually.

EDIT:
Ok I ran same things with Phylactery instead of spyglass, and got this:

DPS Ranking:
82716 100.0% Raid
14086 17.0% Warlockt10560015_1
14084 17.0% Warlockt10560015_3
14081 17.0% Warlockt10560015_2
13623 16.5% Warlockt10001358_4
13619 16.4% Warlockt10001358_5
13312 16.1% T10005615rdps_LKhc_phylactery
Core Stats: strength=320|69(10) agility=329|77(10) stamina=2196|1667(1427) intellect=1859|1586(1427) spirit=1023|802(614) health=29092|24148 mana=32289|28071
Spell Stats: power=5011|3466(3466) hit=15.14%|14.14%(371) crit=48.71%|42.07%(957) penetration=0|0(0) haste=47.73%|29.28%(960) mp5=0|0(0)

So clearly more, but it's still questionable as proc trinkets aren't stabile, but I guess simcraft uses BL at the beginning, where many other things proc too and gives more benefit to Phylactery due to huge DP increase of first 25seconds. But above, this doesn't have much effect on other 5 locks, the gain comes from getting 113 more personal dps.

.

So gear of last simcraftting is this:
head=sanctified_dark_coven_hood,heroic=1,stats=300 armor_114crit_106haste_139int_186sp_139sta,gems=ch aotic_skyflare_10spi_12sp_9sp,enchant=30sp_20crit
neck=amulet_of_the_silent_eulogy,heroic=1,stats=68 haste_60hit_78int_110sp_78sta,gems=23sp
shoulders=sanctified_dark_coven_shoulderpads,heroi c=1,stats=277armor_90crit_82haste_103int_150sp_103 sta,gems=10hit_12sp_5sp,enchant=24sp_15crit
chest=sanguine_silk_robes,stats=139sta_139int_122s pi_186sp_98haste_369armor,gems=10spi_12sp_23sp_10h it_12sp_9sp,enchant=10str_10agi_10sta_10int_10spi
waist=lingering_illness,stats=103sta_103int_90spi_ 140sp_74crit_208armor,gems=10hit_12sp_23sp_23sp_7s p
legs=sanctified_dark_coven_leggings,stats=139sta_1 39int_195sp_122crit_106hit_323armor,gems=10spi_12s p_10hit_12sp_7sp,enchant=50sp_20spi
feet=plague_scientists_boots,stats=103sta_103int_1 40sp_90haste_74crit_254armor,gems=10spi_12sp_23sp_ 7sp,enchant=12crit_12hit
wrists=death_surgeons_sleeves,heroic=1,stats=162ar mor_60crit_78int_68spi_110sp_78sta,gems=10spi_12sp _5sp,enchant=76sp
hands=sanctified_dark_coven_gloves,heroic=1,stats= 231armor_90crit_82hit_103int_150sp_103sta,gems=10s pi_12sp_5sp,enchant=28sp
finger1=ashen_band_of_endless_destruction,stats=64 haste_51hit_73int_101sp_73sta,gems=10hit_12sp_5sp, enchant=23sp,equip=onspellcasthit_285sp_10%_10dur_ 60cd
finger2=memory_of_malygos,heroic=1,stats=60haste_7 8int_68spi_110sp_78sta,gems=10hit_12sp_5sp,enchant =23sp
trinket1=phylactery_of_the_nameless_lich,heroic=1, stats=172crit,equip=onspelltickdamage_1032sp_30%_2 0dur_90cd
trinket2=dislodged_foreign_object,heroic=1,stats=1 70haste,equip=onspellcast_121sp_10stack_10%_20dur_ 45cd_2tick
back=greatcloak_of_the_turned_champion,stats=78sta _78int_68spi_110sp_60haste_185armor,gems=10spi_12s p_5sp,enchant=23haste
main_hand=bloodsurge_kelthuzads_blade_of_agony,her oic=1,stats=55crit_71haste_81int_893sp_81sta,gems= 23sp_5sp,enchant=63sp,weapon=sword_1.80speed_160mi n_447max
off_hand=sundial_of_eternal_dusk,heroic=1,stats=68 haste_78int_68spi_119sp_78sta
ranged=nightmare_ender,stats=44sta_44int_30spi_58s p_38crit,gems=23sp

Last edited by Spellman; May 14, 2010 at 11:53 AM..
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Old May 14, 2010, 11:44 AM   #8 (permalink)

Character Info
Evictoray
80 Undead Warlock
US PvP
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by thetrueavatar View Post
To be honest I'm quite sceptic about the real value of rdps profile.
I'm glad you brought this up so I didn't have to, lol.

I think in ToC and probably late in Ulduar, this would have been a great source to reference and keep updated. But with Cataclysm right around the corner, most people in 4T10 and Hellscream's Warsong at 15% now, I just wonder how much effort it's worth.

I've never been a fan of BiS lists anyway, but that's beside the point.

I don't want to down play the OP's effort because it looks great, but this late in the game I think group coordination > raid dps. We have 2 scheduled raid nights and if we are lacking a proper group, we may only raid 1 night. With that said, everybody has 4T10, at least 2pc Sanctified and we're already rolling on offspecs or DE'ing.

To be honest, I gear my demo lock for pDPS and with SP being our #1 stat and spirit generally > crit, I doubt that my gear set is far off from max potential rDPS anyway.

Maybe I should have kept my opinion to my self, but I hate to see so much effort going into something that will be antiquated soon.
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Old May 14, 2010, 12:36 PM   #9 (permalink)

Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

the only thing i caution is the difference between the pdps and rdps is that spirit is ranked higher than haste because of GoLT and the fact that haste does not contribute directly to DP- separate discussion trying to avoid.
@evictory i understand your hesitation but you seem to be playing in the game that will be and not the game that is currently going on. I think to hypothesize how blizzard will change stats on the current gear in preparation for Cata is a mistake until it happens.
some guilds are simply on farm mode but some are still trying those more difficult heroic modes (PP or sindra) and even hc LK.
Even if the spirit ends up being totally wasted, if Wrath of the Lich King is any indication the gear will still be superior to most of the greens a blues for the majority of leveling in Cata until maybe 84 and the 85 only dungeons.
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Old May 14, 2010, 12:37 PM   #10 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

I'd say "group coordination > raid dps" is always true. Takes still months till Catalysm, maybe as long as ICC been available. And blizz will periodically add buffs/nerfs and new content/loot so nothing lasts forever. And really almost nobody can achieve true BiS gear, at least yet, but sometimes can be fun to just kill LK with simcraft if can't otherwise. Even if you won't aim for BiS, should be noted that if your main role is demo in 25man raid, you should add few 10% to SP and spirit weight values that simcraft gives, if you use those when planning for upgrades.

Last edited by Spellman; May 14, 2010 at 12:39 PM..
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