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Old May 14, 2010, 11:47 AM   #11 (permalink)

Character Info
Evictoray
80 Undead Warlock
US PvP
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalk View Post
@evictory i understand your hesitation but you seem to be playing in the game that will be and not the game that is currently going on. I think to hypothesize how blizzard will change stats on the current gear in preparation for Cata is a mistake until it happens.
No, not really, I'm still currently valuing spirit>crit and I think I've got most if not all of the NM sprit gear that I can except the back from Saurfang (which has never dropped =/)
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Old May 14, 2010, 12:49 PM   #12 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

well the madlax and loco discussed the point of spirit over haste here 3.3 Compendium - Page 2 - Elitist Jerks
loco seems to think the difference in stats really does make it worth it to gear towards those items.

one glaring problem i think most locks should have with their rdps bis set is that it requires the LW sp enchant. and if you remove that from their set i think your idea that the pdps and rdps isn't greatly different may be more practical- but still not convincingly superior to the full out rdps set.

and your intial post seemed to imply that looking into ( which has been done since january) and gearing towards rdps was a waste of time and effort given the upcoming changes.

Quote:
I gear my demo lock for pDPS and with SP being our #1 stat and spirit generally > crit, I doubt that my gear set is far off from max potential rDPS anyway.
Quote:
I hate to see so much effort going into something that will be antiquated soon.
these are what motivated my response. There really is no chance in hell i would criticize your efforts and decisions as a lock - i consider you an expert. (i wasnt really talking about your gear anyways only your post) I only meant to argue making gear decisions based on content which is not currently available is a mistake, especially if you are trying to get the most optimized pve dps which is not something people will be looking at when leveling in cata and by the time it becomes important all gear pieces should be switched out by then.

Last edited by Lorewalk; May 14, 2010 at 12:57 PM.. Reason: someone hacked my post and put a bunch of typos in der!
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Old May 14, 2010, 01:01 PM   #13 (permalink)

Character Info
Evictoray
80 Undead Warlock
US PvP
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalk View Post
and your intial post seemed to imply that looking into ( which has been done since january) and gearing towards rdps was a waste of time and effort given the upcoming changes.
No, I'm still running simcraft and I'm still getting a higher rating for spirit than crit (getting closer though) and I'm still gearing that way, which can't be bad for rDPS can it? I mean, when Cataclysm drops, it'll all become leveling hear anyway right?

I guess my original post assumed a shorter time frame til the XPac than may be realistic.
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Old May 14, 2010, 01:50 PM   #14 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

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Originally Posted by Evictoray View Post
No,
Yes!!!!!!!11111 lol
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Old May 14, 2010, 01:59 PM   #15 (permalink)

Character Info
Evictoray
80 Undead Warlock
US PvP
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalk View Post
Yes!!!!!!!11111 lol
maybe??????
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Old May 15, 2010, 02:02 AM   #16 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorewalk View Post
one glaring problem i think most locks should have with their rdps bis set is that it requires the LW sp enchant. and if you remove that from their set i think your idea that the pdps and rdps isn't greatly different may be more practical- but still not convincingly superior to the full out rdps set.
You don't need to have LW, it's just one option that gives 46SP over normal enchant, almost all viable professions give this same amount.

The differencies between rDPS or pDPS sets aren't big, but it's bigger than minor things like gemming for socket bonus etc. For raid success pDPS is pretty useless, rDPS is the total amount what your lock contributes. So if you could improve your dps by 100-200 would you do it? Of course it's not most simple to calculate and there's many other things too to consider.

But I'd say it again, for 25man rDPS purpose, the stat weights for SP and spirit that simcraft gives are too low(cause they're based on pDPS) and you should add about 30-60% to them.
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Old May 15, 2010, 06:31 AM   #17 (permalink)

Character Info
Evictoray
80 Undead Warlock
US PvP
3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellman View Post
But I'd say it again, for 25man rDPS purpose, the stat weights for SP and spirit that simcraft gives are too low(cause they're based on pDPS) and you should add about 30-60% to them.
But given the available gear in say ICC25N, it's not going to change your choices much. The biggest change that I see by doing that, is that the tier pieces become less attractive. So by your logic the 4T10 boni should be given up?

simmed weights ...
GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings

modified weights ...
GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings
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Old May 15, 2010, 12:12 PM   #18 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evictoray View Post
But given the available gear in say ICC25N, it's not going to change your choices much. The biggest change that I see by doing that, is that the tier pieces become less attractive. So by your logic the 4T10 boni should be given up?

simmed weights ...
GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings

modified weights ...
GuildOx - WoW Guild Progress, Character and Loot Rankings
I may have opened this thread up in the wrong manner.

This isn't an attainable list by many, cruel facts are many people wont do heroic ICC. I'm not in that situation however.

This for many is mearly a "thought exercise".

I will post my responses to individual posts in a while, glad to see theres so much discussion to be had on this topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellman View Post
One way to look into this is that assuming there's at least 5 other caster dps in raid, each gets 10% of your SP, the benefit to rDPS from your SP and spirit could be considered to be 150% of your pDPS weight. Int and Sta contributes little to demonic pact too, but this is minor. So you could get stat weights from simcraft and add 50% to SP and spirit weights to consider further upgrades, but after couple upgrades the stat weights can change again. Obviously not all casters scale same way with SP etc so 150% is just rough estimate, but average raid probably has more than 6 caster dps.

To actually measure rDPS gain, you can just add 5 other characters to same simulation page and run them together and see total rDPS. I've tried this with 1demo, 2destro and 3 affli locks in same raid, but couldn't figure out yet which demo gear would be top rDPS but the default personal BiS profile in simcraft seemed to be pretty high this way too.
While your approach is spot on, I would like to further add something for consideration.

Typically in our 25man Heroic attempts we run 7-8 casters and 6-7 Healers (Stacked, I know).

Let me point you to the recent 25man Deathwhisper HC we did on thursday.

WoW Meters Online - Combatlog Replay

Whilst I know my rotation isn't that tight, and other things (demonic pact having an 83% uptime - lolidied) I can tell you on average I gave a 500sp increase in my gear (this is a grain of salt number, I was tracking my DP buff and it varied from 470 - 590)

This is very rushed and not 100% sure on this.

so rDPS increase would have been = 7*Demonic_Pact_Uptime*SP_Increase*Scale_DPS_factor s
= 7*0.83*500*1.5
= 4357.5 gain.

That in itself is a bit tasty (Ideally I would compare this to an ele shamen totem, but I just don't have the time)

But, theres one factor we haven't considered - the HPS increase from the demonic pact. Whilst this (for my brain) is entirely impossible to model. We can however model this for a disc priest shield absorbed (Sorry, numbers incoming)

*This was more of a mental exercise then to prove/disprove something*

Equations used (utterly ripped of WOWIKI)
  • base_absorb is the base absorb given the PW:S which is 2230 at the moment
  • BT is your Borrowed Time level
  • SP is your Spell Power
  • IMP is your Improved Power Word: Shield level
  • FP is your Focused Power level
  • TD is your Twin Disciplines level
  • Shield_Absorbed=(base_absorb+(0.8068+0.08*BT)*sp)* (1+0.05*IMP)*(1+ 0.02*FP)*(1+0.01*TD)
  • Demonic_Pact_Shield_Absorbed=(base_absorb+(0.8068+ 0.08*BT)*(sp+(Demonic_Pact_Uptime*Demonic_Pact_Ave rage_Value))*(1+0.05*IMP)*(1+ 0.02*FP)*(1+0.01*TD)

Change in the amount absorbed through my demonic pact uptime c as the disc priest user increases SP.
SP Levels2500 Sp3000 Sp3500sp4000sp4500sp5000sp
       
Without Demonic Pact65897346.932328104.682048862.431769620.1814810377.9312
With Demonic Pact7218.1148687975.8645888733.6143089491.36402810249.1137511006.86347
       
% Increase in absorbs9.547956718.5604744977.7601103237.0966105546.5376341286.060285576

I would also like to point out, as the disc priest is increase in sp, theoretically your demonic pact should be increasing the same time.

The point in the table is this, the better geared your disc priest is relative to you, the less effective you are. Yet another factor to be considered in "what to gear for as demon". As for are demonic pact demonologists that useful for healers, the answer is still inconclusive. A quick chat with my shamen healer tells me that SP increase benefits Disc Priests and Druids the most, and to a much lesser extent shamen healers.

I however only have working knowledge on disc priests. This isn't to say the healers don't benefit that much out of Sp - they all do, its just not as desirable by some classes relative to others.

Also, preemptively before you can't measure healers in HPS - this is true. However their effectiveness of their heals can be analysed. More often then not spellpower will make their spells more effective.

Last edited by emuron; May 15, 2010 at 12:19 PM..
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Old May 15, 2010, 12:16 PM   #19 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Evictoray View Post
But given the available gear in say ICC25N, it's not going to change your choices much. The biggest change that I see by doing that, is that the tier pieces become less attractive. So by your logic the 4T10 boni should be given up?
It won't change much the choices, but a little, depends also what gear you can reach, but if you use simcraft to detect those small differencies, then why not use more accurate rDPS weights if 25man is your main focus. And as I said in earlier post losing the set bonus is still not worth it.
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Old May 15, 2010, 12:33 PM   #20 (permalink)

3.3 Re: rDPS Demonology BIS List

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spellman View Post
One way to look into this is that assuming there's at least 5 other caster dps in raid, each gets 10% of your SP, the benefit to rDPS from your SP and spirit could be considered to be 150% of your pDPS weight. Int and Sta contributes little to demonic pact too, but this is minor. So you could get stat weights from simcraft and add 50% to SP and spirit weights to consider further upgrades, but after couple upgrades the stat weights can change again. Obviously not all casters scale same way with SP etc so 150% is just rough estimate, but average raid probably has more than 6 caster dps.

To actually measure rDPS gain, you can just add 5 other characters to same simulation page and run them together and see total rDPS. I've tried this with 1demo, 2destro and 3 affli locks in same raid, but couldn't figure out yet which demo gear would be top rDPS but the default personal BiS profile in simcraft seemed to be pretty high this way too.

Gain from using non-tier gear would seem to be 200-300 rDPS so not worth it.
Trinkets are most tricky part cause of DP, proc trinkets give more unstable DP values, but if timed right it can be huge boost and in the long run it will average out but BiS choices now are pretty limited to DFO and either spyglass or phylactery.

For weapon, if I counted it right the choice seems quite easy, MH+OH gives about same SP and haste as staff, but has extra 55 crit:
Archus:
1052 SP (81+78+893)
141 Spirit = 91.5 SP
141 haste
188 Stamina
188 Intellect

Bloodsurge+Sundial
1103 SP (63+28+893+119)
68 Spirit = 44 SP
55 crit
139 haste
159 Stamina
159 Intellect

Most people can only dream of getting those weapons, but looking at non-LK25hc loot, mh+oh seems like could still beat any staff.

Using the 277 weapons.

Using Archus as a base line.

Weapon ChoiceSpHasSpiritIntCrit
Archus10521411411880
Bloodsurge11011396815955
Difference49-2-73-2955
Dying Light9741411411760
Difference-7800-120

Using the MH + OH gives you a 4.9 demonic pact but a loss of lots of haste and spirit.

Using Dying Light looses 7.8 demonic pact (QQ) and a loss of 12 spirit.
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