Rogue: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know.

dr8bit · April 16, 2008, 02:30 AM

I've been trying to get some clear answers on a couple of issues.

One is-Mostly everything I seem to hear about dagger rogues is that they aren't that great. This seems to include PVE and PVP. Though occasionally I hear that mutilate specced dagger rogues are good. What are people's takes on a mutilate 41/0/20 spec with daggers? Good for pve, pvp, both or neither? Is there a more optimal mutilate spec?

Second question-I'm 53 now and just respecced again to ultimately a 21/0/40 build as I level to 70. I'm not planning on taking SHS as I won't be able to backstab. Is SHS a talent used only for backstabbing? I'm not actually sure what it does, as this rogue is my alt. Also, on an semi-related question-with my current plans for my spec, is there some fundamental problem using two swords? I've read one sword in the main hand is okay, but to get a dagger for the OH.

I don't know what to believe anymore. Doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on how to play a rogue as there is for a warlock (as in what spec is for what and what works the best). Thanks in advance.

Cynic · April 16, 2008, 08:31 AM

Mutilate has to flavors. 41/20/0 for pve and 41/0/20 for pvp. The reason it's so powerful is that it has an absolutely ridiculous potential for burst damage in pvp and generates a ton of combo points for pve.

Concerning assassination/sub swords: Nothing wrong with using swords with this build, nor is there anything wrong with using swords with shadowstep. Just use hemorrhage.

RomaGoth · April 16, 2008, 08:38 AM

From my experience with a rogue (only level 36 right now), I have found that a sword in main hand is great for damage and you want a slower weapon in main hand anyway. I have a dagger in off hand because chance to hit is lower, thus you need faster weapon for more chances to hit/apply poison. I also use the stance set that is available with Titan Panel, and it is very very useful. I just set it up that when I am in stealth I dual-wield daggers (for ambush, sap, etc.), when I come out of stealth I keep the dagger in my off hand but equip a sword in main hand for more damage.

I have also gone back and forth with the 41/0/20 mutilate or 20/0/41 shadowstep talent spec. Still not completely sure which I will do, but I am actually leaning towards the SHS because of my play style. I love stealthing and sneaking up on people, and the Subtlety tree has more of that than the Assassination tree right now. I have read a lot about the Cheat Death ability too, and it appears to be extremely useful, especially in pvp.

Ultimately, just go with the style you enjoy playing.

Theleb · April 16, 2008, 08:52 AM

Mutilate has the potential to out-damage combat daggers in PvE and is a great source of burst damage in PvP (especially with the recent change of Imp Backstab to Puncturing Wounds)..

BUT

It needs a lot of crit to make it shine in PvE (which isn't a problem as its hit requirements are lower than a combat spec) and likewise in PvP (which can present difficulties depending on gear level). The other factor is that with so many fist/sword/mace Hemo rogues at the moment you'll get eaten alive due to your lack of sub talents.

ShS is THE PvP build for a lot of people (20/0/41 for more damage, 17/3/41 for Imp gouge, as well as the hybrids) and its simply because of the surviveability, massive ap/crit and some incredible tools for Control and escape. I'm currently 17/3/41 after being Mutilate and I wouldn't go back. In my PvE gear I have 2.1k ap, 27% crit and 320 hit rating so it does quite well for dps

iiada · April 16, 2008, 08:57 AM

Shadowstep is a lot of fun, but I doupt it is optimal for damage. it is however great for prowling arround battlegrounds looking for soft targets, and heamo + slow swords = reliable damage in most situations. I'm currently using a 20/0/41 build with daggers & Imp Backstab, which I confess is a little ropey - 2-4k damage in a stunlock is not going to kill anyone apart from frail aunt Mary, but subtlety has enough style going for it I don't mind.

RomaGoth · April 16, 2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Theleb

In my PvE gear I have 2.1k ap, 27% crit and 320 hit rating so it does quite well for dps

Holy snikeys! 2k AP? What are your stats in PvP gear? No wonder why clothies hate rogues so much. I guess that is why I enjoy both a rogue and warlock. They both can destroy opponents in a flash.....

Rykkan · April 16, 2008, 09:11 AM

for Leveling and PVE Combat Swords/Fist/Mace are the way to go, they out dps all other specs. in PVP i've never used Mutilate, but i've been ShS 20/0/41 and i use a add-on to change my dagger when i stealth and fist when i break, so i can get the big 2.8k-3k ambush crits on clothies, and Cheat Death is golden.

Also, I had a ShS Rogue Tank Heroic MgT for me the other day too. was one of the smoothest runs i've had.

April 16, 2008, 02:30 AM	#1 (permalink)
dr8bit Lurker Character Info Mummra 70 Undead Warlock Shattered Halls US PvP Guild: Brethren of Dissent Talent Spec: 6/44/11	Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. I've been trying to get some clear answers on a couple of issues. One is-Mostly everything I seem to hear about dagger rogues is that they aren't that great. This seems to include PVE and PVP. Though occasionally I hear that mutilate specced dagger rogues are good. What are people's takes on a mutilate 41/0/20 spec with daggers? Good for pve, pvp, both or neither? Is there a more optimal mutilate spec? Second question-I'm 53 now and just respecced again to ultimately a 21/0/40 build as I level to 70. I'm not planning on taking SHS as I won't be able to backstab. Is SHS a talent used only for backstabbing? I'm not actually sure what it does, as this rogue is my alt. Also, on an semi-related question-with my current plans for my spec, is there some fundamental problem using two swords? I've read one sword in the main hand is okay, but to get a dagger for the OH. I don't know what to believe anymore. Doesn't seem to be much of a consensus on how to play a rogue as there is for a warlock (as in what spec is for what and what works the best). Thanks in advance.

April 16, 2008, 08:31 AM	#2 (permalink)
Cynic Member Character Info Cynicism 70 Blood Elf Warlock Kel'Thuzad US PvP Guild: Mooninites Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 27/34/0	Re: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. Mutilate has to flavors. 41/20/0 for pve and 41/0/20 for pvp. The reason it's so powerful is that it has an absolutely ridiculous potential for burst damage in pvp and generates a ton of combo points for pve. Concerning assassination/sub swords: Nothing wrong with using swords with this build, nor is there anything wrong with using swords with shadowstep. Just use hemorrhage.

April 16, 2008, 08:38 AM	#3 (permalink)
RomaGoth Lock of All Trades Character Info RomaGoth 70 Human Warlock Durotan US PvE Guild: Ultima Forsan Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/8/53	Re: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. From my experience with a rogue (only level 36 right now), I have found that a sword in main hand is great for damage and you want a slower weapon in main hand anyway. I have a dagger in off hand because chance to hit is lower, thus you need faster weapon for more chances to hit/apply poison. I also use the stance set that is available with Titan Panel, and it is very very useful. I just set it up that when I am in stealth I dual-wield daggers (for ambush, sap, etc.), when I come out of stealth I keep the dagger in my off hand but equip a sword in main hand for more damage. I have also gone back and forth with the 41/0/20 mutilate or 20/0/41 shadowstep talent spec. Still not completely sure which I will do, but I am actually leaning towards the SHS because of my play style. I love stealthing and sneaking up on people, and the Subtlety tree has more of that than the Assassination tree right now. I have read a lot about the Cheat Death ability too, and it appears to be extremely useful, especially in pvp. Ultimately, just go with the style you enjoy playing. Last edited by RomaGoth; April 16, 2008 at 08:39 AM. Reason: Correct typos

April 16, 2008, 08:52 AM	#4 (permalink)
Theleb Moderator Character Info Theleb 70 Human Warlock Shadowsong Euro PvE Guild: Original Talent Spec: 0/46/15	Re: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. Mutilate has the potential to out-damage combat daggers in PvE and is a great source of burst damage in PvP (especially with the recent change of Imp Backstab to Puncturing Wounds).. BUT It needs a lot of crit to make it shine in PvE (which isn't a problem as its hit requirements are lower than a combat spec) and likewise in PvP (which can present difficulties depending on gear level). The other factor is that with so many fist/sword/mace Hemo rogues at the moment you'll get eaten alive due to your lack of sub talents. ShS is THE PvP build for a lot of people (20/0/41 for more damage, 17/3/41 for Imp gouge, as well as the hybrids) and its simply because of the surviveability, massive ap/crit and some incredible tools for Control and escape. I'm currently 17/3/41 after being Mutilate and I wouldn't go back. In my PvE gear I have 2.1k ap, 27% crit and 320 hit rating so it does quite well for dps

April 16, 2008, 08:57 AM	#5 (permalink)
iiada Member Character Info iiada 70 Human Warlock Steamwheadle Euro RP Talent Spec: 45/5/11	Re: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. Shadowstep is a lot of fun, but I doupt it is optimal for damage. it is however great for prowling arround battlegrounds looking for soft targets, and heamo + slow swords = reliable damage in most situations. I'm currently using a 20/0/41 build with daggers & Imp Backstab, which I confess is a little ropey - 2-4k damage in a stunlock is not going to kill anyone apart from frail aunt Mary, but subtlety has enough style going for it I don't mind.

April 16, 2008, 09:11 AM	#7 (permalink)
Rykkan Lurker Character Info Gaidal 70 Orc Warlock Black Dragonflight US PvP Guild: Dominus Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/44/17	Re: Daggers, Swords, SHS, Mutilate...I don't know. for Leveling and PVE Combat Swords/Fist/Mace are the way to go, they out dps all other specs. in PVP i've never used Mutilate, but i've been ShS 20/0/41 and i use a add-on to change my dagger when i stealth and fist when i break, so i can get the big 2.8k-3k ambush crits on clothies, and Cheat Death is golden. Also, I had a ShS Rogue Tank Heroic MgT for me the other day too. was one of the smoothest runs i've had.