Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.

Nevinyrral · March 05, 2008, 08:30 PM

Well, there's been quite a discussion here as far as dealing with a class that is downright mean. Think of us as WoW's darwinism. If you're low on health, overpull, don't have gear, or are just generally unlucky, I show up. I win too, damned near 100% of the time. This won't address arena tactics, primarily because I don't arena.

First, let me link my armory profile:

The World of Warcraft Armory

Take a look. I have mostly S1 epics, with some pve stuff thrown in. The goggles look neat, and I don't feel like replacing my leggings.

Most of what I'm going to tell you is common sense, so if you're full of yourself, or have been playing WoW forever, you can skip this part.

Why did the rogue pick me, and not that holy priest/fire mage/etc over there?

Playing a rogue is a lot like rock, paper, scissors. I'm the scissors, you're the paper; unless you're a warrior, in which case you're an OP killing machine, and I hate you, especially with high resilience. I like killing Warlocks, especially gnomes. They're my favorite, next to out roguing other rogues. Several reasons for this. First being, I got hosed by your dots and deathcoil so many times before 70, I have grudge. Secondly, you're the only cloth class that's even stands a remote chance of killing me, so there is a challenge involved. Frost mages, maybe, but they have to have at least 10k health, full mana and get the jump to even have a chance.

Anyway, there are 4 main reasons why you're dead:

1) You let your health slip below 50 percent, and are no where near mobs that can hurt me.

2) You over pulled or were afk. I feel mean, and you're an HK.

3) You ganked my alt, and are a camping b**ch. I will make your life hell, and yes, I do keep a list.

4) You're in a guild, or have a name like "Ipwnhorde." I'll kill you, at any level, just to prove a point.

This little ramble will go under the assumption that the rogue you're fighting is some brand of hemo. Shadowstep when done by most rogues is a joke at best, however I have seen some extremely talented ones. Mutilate isn't really viable due to the positioning requirements. Combat is more PvE oriented, and lacks some of the better survival talents, like improved stealth, and cheat death. These are typically PvE rogues, and will only jump you when their win is guaranteed. You obviosuly can't armory them, but if you see daggers, fists, or swords, he's probably PvE, or occasionally shadowstep. Maces are what you worry about. Most self-respecting PvP rogues will tell you that there's no substitute for the mace stun proc. Despite what people cry about, it almost NEVER happens.

Well, you're an appealing target, I jump out the shadows, and you're stunned. Where to from there? I'll assume you have full health. I typically use mind numbing and wound or crippling poisons, depending. At best, I'll miss my kidney shot, and you'll be at 75% health. At worst, you'll be at 30-50% due to me getting everything off properly. IF, and it's a big if I get everything off properly, gg. I'm better than most rogues, and I can perfectly execute an attack on a caster about 75% of the time. Complete stunlock and silence for upwards of 18 seconds, factoring my racial. If something misses, and you can break the groove, here's what to do:

Deathcoil or an instant HoT if you have it. I'm not going to waste a CoS on a deathcoil. You have 3, or 6 seconds. 1 - 3 Dots, and a fear. I'll wait until you get everything stacked up and then CoS out of it. Once I CoS out, I'll vanish. This is where you worry. Depending on the time frame, I'll probably have my kick and kidney shot cooled down. You have to catch me in stealth.

Fel Dominate a Fel puppy. Run around like a fool, and don't stop. I promise, I'll be out of range, but some rogues you will catch. You will keep me away, or if you're particularly talented and running around like a fool, I'll wait for you to stop. If I don't appear in 15 seconds, mount up, and hope you don't run towards me.

If you don't catch me, and I sap you, send the fel puppy after me. He's annoying if nothing else. Again, this is going to involve some praying on your part. If you have improved HoT, it should have cooled down by now, or you haven't burnt it. If not, well this may be where your luck stops. Dot me up again with instants, and drain life spam me. Hope that you can kill me faster than I can kill you. If you get kicked out of your drain, try a fear. Remember, I can't dispel anymore, as CoS is a 1 minute cooldown, and preparation doesn't blow it. If you see the fight going your way, I'll run out of it. Be merciless, and redot me before I get out of range. I may burn my prep to vanish, in which case you're safe for at least 5 minutes, maybe 10.

Again, this is how I play my toon. Most rogues will be easier, and some won't. As illustrated earlier, in many posts, if things go my way, or if I get multiple mace procs, gg.

If this helps you kill at least 1 gnome rogue, I did my job.

If you've died, I probably won't stick around, save long enough to eat. Don't be a fool and burn your SS and try and kill me, unless you can do it with a single shadow bolt, or your deathcoil came off cd. You with no pet, and marginal health vs. something you can't see. In my opinion you deserve it for that one.

The biggest thing you can do that will screw up my day -

Get those + to resist stun gems. Those proc more often than I like, and if I miss my kidney shot or cheap shot, things won't go well.

Ataphes · March 05, 2008, 08:43 PM

Bravo, This is nearly the way I think except for the fact I'm dagger specced and I don't PvP to hard.

doogless · March 05, 2008, 09:02 PM

Using Fel Dom to summon a Felhunter against a Rogue makes absolutely no sense. Against a Rogue with MoD, you're simply not going to see him unless you're human and have perception, Paranoia just won't cut it. If you're Demo and want to change pets against a Rogue, you want a Voidwalker for the MD buff (and I suppose the shield, but not until you're about to die), not a Felhunter.

gankmetoday · March 05, 2008, 09:05 PM

How about kiting the rogue using curse of exhaustion? ( -30% movement speed)

ive been trained by my rogue friend in how to handle rogues and this is his method -

1)firstly run ard like a fool with a felhound jumping like a moron so the rogue has a harding time catching you intially ( you got that rite OP =P)

2)if you see him before he cna hit you unload CoEx + sl + Curse of Agony and sic pet on him.run like a fool.Repeat till he CLOS+ vanish.(if he doesnt all the better free hk) then either repeat step one or go to step 3.

3)if you dont,and he catches you in a stun lock wait for the kdiney shot.WAIT FOR THE KIDNEY SHOT.most pvp locks got about 12.5-13k HP with soul link - you can absorb about 15.5k worht of damage,no worries.then trinket, run, jump and turn once ( exceptional rogues will CLOS to prevent dc,if he has CLOS before sometime in the last 1 min ignore this step),run 5 sec jump , dc ---> fear---> CoEx + Sl+ Curse of Agony + drain life,fear if you wish.

4)note though that good rogues will sprint even when CoExed to try catch you with a stun so you cant kite them - be aware of this and try to ktie ard the pillar tree or what not,anyhting for a sligth advantage.

This is my method with dealing with rogues.i du nhave iHoT or ua since im pure sl/sl speced and not that suqishy ua spec =P

gankmetoday · March 05, 2008, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doogless

Using Fel Dom to summon a Felhunter against a Rogue makes absolutely no sense. Against a Rogue with MoD, you're simply not going to see him unless you're human and have perception, Paranoia just won't cut it. If you're Demo and want to change pets against a Rogue, you want a Voidwalker for the MD buff (and I suppose the shield, but not until you're about to die), not a Felhunter.

i normally do use a hound even against rogues,even small bit helps i suppose.besides,the hound does hit the rogue for much mroe then the void.

Nevinyrral · March 05, 2008, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doogless

Using Fel Dom to summon a Felhunter against a Rogue makes absolutely no sense. Against a Rogue with MoD, you're simply not going to see him unless you're human and have perception, Paranoia just won't cut it. If you're Demo and want to change pets against a Rogue, you want a Voidwalker for the MD buff (and I suppose the shield, but not until you're about to die), not a Felhunter.

Here's how stealth works:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.h...;num=17;page=1

If you don't feel like reading, I'll save you the trouble:

Master of Deception gives +3 per skill point, up to +15 for 5/5(equiv 3 levels).
Felhunter (paranoia) (+30, warlock)

So it's like a 67 trying to gank you. From a rogue perspective, it's more damaging to stop my opener and pull me out of stealth than it is for you to sit through 3k damage. Again, make me burn my cool downs. If you're almost dead, you're simply delaying the inevitable by using a vw, where as if you can fear//damage me, you have a chance at living. Not to mention if I see a Fel Hunter, I have to stop and think, whereas if I see a VW, I just go back and wreck you. Every second you buy yourself with me not on top of you, my chances of winning drop.

Krzi · March 05, 2008, 09:59 PM

my level rog alt is 60 atm, I like your build. I wanna try it. I see your on a PvP server, but how would this build do in PvE?

and btw good post.

Suspiria · March 05, 2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gankmetoday

2)if you see him before he cna hit you unload CoEx + sl + Curse of Agony

Curse of Agony annihilates CoEX. I assume you mean Corruption.

Thank all, though. Nice information.

doogless · March 05, 2008, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevinyrral

Here's how stealth works:

http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/class.h...;num=17;page=1

If you don't feel like reading, I'll save you the trouble:

Master of Deception gives +3 per skill point, up to +15 for 5/5(equiv 3 levels).
Felhunter (paranoia) (+30, warlock)

So it's like a 67 trying to gank you. From a rogue perspective, it's more damaging to stop my opener and pull me out of stealth than it is for you to sit through 3k damage. Again, make me burn my cool downs. If you're almost dead, you're simply delaying the inevitable by using a vw, where as if you can fear//damage me, you have a chance at living. Not to mention if I see a Fel Hunter, I have to stop and think, whereas if I see a VW, I just go back and wreck you. Every second you buy yourself with me not on top of you, my chances of winning drop.

The primary purpose of using a Voidwalker is the MD buff, which is -10% physical damage. In addition, his AoE taunt -10% to hit for 15 seconds. The shield is a last resort.

Also, you realize that even with a Felhunter, the Warlock doesn't see you until you're almost in range for Cheap Shot, right? And that's assuming you're approaching him from the front, from the side or the back he has no chance. As long as you move directly towards him, he has to have unbelievable reflexes to pull you out of stealth.

I realize pulling a Rogue out of stealth makes the fight a lot easier. What I'm saying is that a Felhunter doesn't give you a good enough of doing that, and therefore the Voidwalker is better for 1v1. It's a slightly different story if the Warlock is Human because of Perception, but if you can't find the Rogue during the duration of Perception, you should switch to a Voidwalker.

Cynic · March 06, 2008, 12:39 AM

On my rogue (who is admitedly not as well geared as I'd like) the only thing that really stops me cold is someone with capped (or nearly capped) resilience and >11k hp. Or plate, but hey, it's plate. If you're a clothie with 0 resilience, 1200 armor and 8k hp your lunch money is mine >:D

Most people, sans arena gear, can't live through a rogue with preparation, expecially in a ganking scene. If I pick the person wrong, it's the ever-annoying cloak-vanish. Prep rogues are a pita to kill if you can't get a non-magic bleed on them (and dwarf rogues even if you do..). If prep isn't up, I usually don't go in for a second round of toe to toe.

If they're not prep (shadowstep is a good indication of a prep rogue, so is maces and AR but they move fast in stealth), then all you have to do is outlive the cooldowns and keep them off your leg. There's nothing I love more on my rogue than when a caster gives up halfway through the fight with numbing and crippling on them, and they just let me beat them into submission. So don't give up until you're on the corpse run ;)

March 05, 2008, 08:30 PM	#1 (permalink)
Nevinyrral Lurker Character Info Valleri 70 Blood Elf Rogue Skullcrusher US PvP Guild: Plague Talent Spec: 0/25/35	Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. Well, there's been quite a discussion here as far as dealing with a class that is downright mean. Think of us as WoW's darwinism. If you're low on health, overpull, don't have gear, or are just generally unlucky, I show up. I win too, damned near 100% of the time. This won't address arena tactics, primarily because I don't arena. First, let me link my armory profile: The World of Warcraft Armory Take a look. I have mostly S1 epics, with some pve stuff thrown in. The goggles look neat, and I don't feel like replacing my leggings. Most of what I'm going to tell you is common sense, so if you're full of yourself, or have been playing WoW forever, you can skip this part. Why did the rogue pick me, and not that holy priest/fire mage/etc over there? Playing a rogue is a lot like rock, paper, scissors. I'm the scissors, you're the paper; unless you're a warrior, in which case you're an OP killing machine, and I hate you, especially with high resilience. I like killing Warlocks, especially gnomes. They're my favorite, next to out roguing other rogues. Several reasons for this. First being, I got hosed by your dots and deathcoil so many times before 70, I have grudge. Secondly, you're the only cloth class that's even stands a remote chance of killing me, so there is a challenge involved. Frost mages, maybe, but they have to have at least 10k health, full mana and get the jump to even have a chance. Anyway, there are 4 main reasons why you're dead: 1) You let your health slip below 50 percent, and are no where near mobs that can hurt me. 2) You over pulled or were afk. I feel mean, and you're an HK. 3) You ganked my alt, and are a camping b*ch. I will make your life hell, and yes, I do keep a list. 4) You're in a guild, or have a name like "Ipwnhorde." I'll kill you, at any level, just to prove a point. This little ramble will go under the assumption that the rogue you're fighting is some brand of hemo. Shadowstep when done by most rogues is a joke at best, however I have seen some extremely talented ones. Mutilate isn't really viable due to the positioning requirements. Combat is more PvE oriented, and lacks some of the better survival talents, like improved stealth, and cheat death. These are typically PvE rogues, and will only jump you when their win is guaranteed. You obviosuly can't armory them, but if you see daggers, fists, or swords, he's probably PvE, or occasionally shadowstep. Maces are what you worry about. Most self-respecting PvP rogues will tell you that there's no substitute for the mace stun proc. Despite what people cry about, it almost NEVER happens. Well, you're an appealing target, I jump out the shadows, and you're stunned. Where to from there? I'll assume you have full health. I typically use mind numbing and wound or crippling poisons, depending. At best, I'll miss my kidney shot, and you'll be at 75% health. At worst, you'll be at 30-50% due to me getting everything off properly. IF, and it's a big if I get everything off properly, gg. I'm better than most rogues, and I can perfectly execute an attack on a caster about 75% of the time. Complete stunlock and silence for upwards of 18 seconds, factoring my racial. If something misses, and you can break the groove, here's what to do: Deathcoil or an instant HoT if you have it. I'm not going to waste a CoS on a deathcoil. You have 3, or 6 seconds. 1 - 3 Dots, and a fear. I'll wait until you get everything stacked up and then CoS out of it. Once I CoS out, I'll vanish. This is where you worry. Depending on the time frame, I'll probably have my kick and kidney shot cooled down. You have to catch me in stealth. Fel Dominate a Fel puppy. Run around like a fool, and don't stop. I promise, I'll be out of range, but some rogues you will catch. You will keep me away, or if you're particularly talented and running around like a fool, I'll wait for you to stop. If I don't appear in 15 seconds, mount up, and hope you don't run towards me. If you don't catch me, and I sap you, send the fel puppy after me. He's annoying if nothing else. Again, this is going to involve some praying on your part. If you have improved HoT, it should have cooled down by now, or you haven't burnt it. If not, well this may be where your luck stops. Dot me up again with instants, and drain life spam me. Hope that you can kill me faster than I can kill you. If you get kicked out of your drain, try a fear. Remember, I can't dispel anymore, as CoS is a 1 minute cooldown, and preparation doesn't blow it. If you see the fight going your way, I'll run out of it. Be merciless, and redot me before I get out of range. I may burn my prep to vanish, in which case you're safe for at least 5 minutes, maybe 10. Again, this is how I play my toon. Most rogues will be easier, and some won't. As illustrated earlier, in many posts, if things go my way, or if I get multiple mace procs, gg. If this helps you kill at least 1 gnome rogue, I did my job. If you've died, I probably won't stick around, save long enough to eat. Don't be a fool and burn your SS and try and kill me, unless you can do it with a single shadow bolt, or your deathcoil came off cd. You with no pet, and marginal health vs. something you can't see. In my opinion you deserve it for that one. The biggest thing you can do that will screw up my day - Get those + to resist stun gems. Those proc more often than I like, and if I miss my kidney shot or cheap shot, things won't go well. Last edited by Nevinyrral; March 05, 2008 at 08:37 PM.*

March 05, 2008, 08:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Ataphes Registered Character Info Ataphes 70 Undead Warlock The Venture Co. US RP PvP Guild: Infinite Synergy Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 43/7/11	Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. Bravo, This is nearly the way I think except for the fact I'm dagger specced and I don't PvP to hard.

March 05, 2008, 09:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
doogless Member Character Info Themorrigan 70 Human Warlock Kil'Jaeden US PvP Guild: The Collective Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/0/0	Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. Using Fel Dom to summon a Felhunter against a Rogue makes absolutely no sense. Against a Rogue with MoD, you're simply not going to see him unless you're human and have perception, Paranoia just won't cut it. If you're Demo and want to change pets against a Rogue, you want a Voidwalker for the MD buff (and I suppose the shield, but not until you're about to die), not a Felhunter. Last edited by doogless; March 05, 2008 at 09:05 PM.

March 05, 2008, 09:05 PM	#4 (permalink)
gankmetoday Member Character Info Gankmetoday 70 Orc Warlock bath Oceania PvP Guild: Revolt Talent Spec: 021/40	Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. How about kiting the rogue using curse of exhaustion? ( -30% movement speed) ive been trained by my rogue friend in how to handle rogues and this is his method - 1)firstly run ard like a fool with a felhound jumping like a moron so the rogue has a harding time catching you intially ( you got that rite OP =P) 2)if you see him before he cna hit you unload CoEx + sl + Curse of Agony and sic pet on him.run like a fool.Repeat till he CLOS+ vanish.(if he doesnt all the better free hk) then either repeat step one or go to step 3. 3)if you dont,and he catches you in a stun lock wait for the kdiney shot.WAIT FOR THE KIDNEY SHOT.most pvp locks got about 12.5-13k HP with soul link - you can absorb about 15.5k worht of damage,no worries.then trinket, run, jump and turn once ( exceptional rogues will CLOS to prevent dc,if he has CLOS before sometime in the last 1 min ignore this step),run 5 sec jump , dc ---> fear---> CoEx + Sl+ Curse of Agony + drain life,fear if you wish. 4)note though that good rogues will sprint even when CoExed to try catch you with a stun so you cant kite them - be aware of this and try to ktie ard the pillar tree or what not,anyhting for a sligth advantage. This is my method with dealing with rogues.i du nhave iHoT or ua since im pure sl/sl speced and not that suqishy ua spec =P Last edited by gankmetoday; March 05, 2008 at 09:13 PM.

March 05, 2008, 09:59 PM	#7 (permalink)
Krzi Member Character Info Krzi 70 Orc Warlock Madoran US PvE Guild: Evil Dead Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 20/41/0	Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. my level rog alt is 60 atm, I like your build. I wanna try it. I see your on a PvP server, but how would this build do in PvE? and btw good post. Last edited by Krzi; March 05, 2008 at 10:20 PM.

March 06, 2008, 12:39 AM	#10 (permalink)
Cynic Member Character Info Cynicism 70 Blood Elf Warlock Kel'Thuzad US PvP Guild: Mooninites Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 27/34/0	Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue. On my rogue (who is admitedly not as well geared as I'd like) the only thing that really stops me cold is someone with capped (or nearly capped) resilience and >11k hp. Or plate, but hey, it's plate. If you're a clothie with 0 resilience, 1200 armor and 8k hp your lunch money is mine >:D Most people, sans arena gear, can't live through a rogue with preparation, expecially in a ganking scene. If I pick the person wrong, it's the ever-annoying cloak-vanish. Prep rogues are a pita to kill if you can't get a non-magic bleed on them (and dwarf rogues even if you do..). If prep isn't up, I usually don't go in for a second round of toe to toe. If they're not prep (shadowstep is a good indication of a prep rogue, so is maces and AR but they move fast in stealth), then all you have to do is outlive the cooldowns and keep them off your leg. There's nothing I love more on my rogue than when a caster gives up halfway through the fight with numbing and crippling on them, and they just let me beat them into submission. So don't give up until you're on the corpse run ;)