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August 25, 2008, 09:47 PM
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#101 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
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Hi, first of all, I think no one will dispute that a skilled and well geared rogue is very very hard to beat. I think the point here is that there are a lot of things that one can do in general to at least give it a good go. The key with using the succy here is that you shouldn't make it easy for the rogue to switch between lock and succy by staying close. Succy should be well away from the lock, be it in BGs or arena. The point is, if the rogue has to deal with succy, the lock is already much better off than using a Felhunter. But against a well geared, well skilled rogue with CLOS, Will of the Forsaken, Trinket, vanish, Shadowstep, is this going to make a difference? Probably not, but it will at least give locks a chance. /wtb Demonic Circle
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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August 26, 2008, 01:02 AM
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#102 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Lessic 80 Undead Warlock Darkspear US PvP Guild: Tarren Mill Deathguard Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 56/0/15 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
In the end what helps best with killing a rogue... is another rogue nearby stealthed ready to jump him as soon as he jumps you lol |
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August 27, 2008, 06:30 PM
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#103 (permalink) | |
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Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
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August 27, 2008, 07:07 PM
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#104 (permalink) |
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Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Never use your Fel Dom for a Fel hunter if the rogue knows how to play.... Always always always use a Void... Then sac when your low like 40%-50% and then summon a other void.... |
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September 03, 2008, 02:37 PM
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#105 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Tianshaan 80 Human Warlock Terokkar US PvE Guild: Vae Victus Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
God this seems like great information too bad its full of acronyms of which I have no idea about. About a third of them I can't even search for as it brings up squat. Plus, I'm tired of searching for 10 different acronyms every for every page I read. Can we have maybe ONE full on description of an acronym for each thread? |
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October 09, 2008, 12:47 AM
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#106 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Oniram 70 Blood Elf Warlock Thrall US PvE Guild: Apex Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Being a full time warlock with a rogue alt I know the feeling from both ends. First and foremost. Unless you significantly outgear the rogue, its not going to be a picnic facing him/her. A lot of mistakes rogues will make, lets say for example WSG. Both teams are heading for the base, and you see a rogue dismount and stealth, now he is going to do one of 2 things. Either shadow step and tear into you, or toy with you, sapping first and such. Most of the time as a warlock in bgs you'll probably have felpup out if you're sl/sl. First thing you immiedately do, put your pup on aggressive. He'll see the rogue long before you, and if you luck out and he's toying with you, the pup will break his stealth. That will throw him for a loop and he'll have to counter and do something else. Hopefully you'll be able to get out of sap and start doing your thing. As far as the actual duel, a lot of it is skill and a lot of it is luck. CoE makes a big diff buy frankly with the interupt effect of deadly throw, and shiv it's going to be rough. I've taken down s4 locks with my s2 rogue so I'm still trying to figure out effective methods for pvp now, though come 3.0 I must say instant cast shadowfury or metamorphosis might make some differences in fights, but only time will see |
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October 09, 2008, 01:51 AM
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#107 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Lessic 80 Undead Warlock Darkspear US PvP Guild: Tarren Mill Deathguard Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 56/0/15 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Actually if they try to shadowstep me i've actually been able to catch it and avoid it a few times... most do sap and toy with you. Though I've been messing with demo on ptr and i don't thinks rogues are going to like full demo locks after 3.0 lol |
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October 09, 2008, 04:07 AM
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#108 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Demo with Felguard has always been strong vs rogues. Though with the new upgrades in demo and metamorphsis, we can finally have a real rogue counter if we choose to... How do you "catch" a shadowstep and avoid it? Most rogues use sap because it will give them the most risk free way of opening on you. Most of the time they are not really "toying" with you I think, but rather waiting for some of that energy to return to max before opening. Of course, if you trinket out of sap, then all the better.....
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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October 09, 2008, 05:55 AM
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#109 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Ftwanti 80 Undead Warlock Frostwolf US PvP Guild: Voidlords Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Honestly I don't think there isn't a way to killl an equally skilled and geared rogue as SL/SL. I see it play out in front of Org all the time, I used to play it myself and see it happen. Rogues just have too many tricks for us, and unless we have a VW out and sac + fel dom and sac again you have zero chance at all at winning as SL/SL against a good rogue. Honestly, haven't had too much experience as full Demo, I think I've specced it maybe 4-5 times but I would think that a smart rogue would sap the lock, kill the pet and either vanish or blind + re-stealth. If the lock gets another FG up I'd imagine the rogue just does it again either using the opposite reset strategy as before or popping Preparation. To be honest I don't know if all of that is necassary. Maybe all the rogue has to do is blind the felguard and DPS you. (Blind is considered a incapacitate right? It does cancel soul link while the FG is blinded right?)Like I said before I have not played demo very much and don't have the experience in it, but they do sound like likely scenarios to me. If I'm wrong please let me know. I however DO know that I can kill equally geared rogues about 50/50 as destruction. The key that I've found is to burst HARD when you are in control which isn't long. Maybe you are lucky and saw the rogue and where he stealthed, if so I usually throw a shadow fury in the area and most of the time I can catch the rogue. Obviously this isn't always an option you don't always know that the rogue is there. So rogues usually open with cheap shot. 4 Second stun, due to latency it usually takes about a second for the rogue to show up on my screen, I start casting seduce as soon as I can. Seduce is obviously a 1.5 second cast and will land about a second before you get out of the stun, maybe a bit later if your reactions are slow. At this point I still have both of my trinkets (I use a medallion and a battlemasters) maybe a healthstone and all cooldowns. Also since the rogue has been hitting me for 2-3 seconds I usually have backlash. Some rogues will trinket out of the seduce, if this happens for me I've found that it is vital that I keep control so I will trinket out of his kidneyshot as soon as it hits and deathcoil him off. If no trinket I make sure I get as much room as possible between me and the rogue while leaving me enough time to cast (I try to start casting with 3 seconds left on my seduce). I have found that the key to beating rogues is keeping them controlled as long as possible. With the use of deathcoil, Shadow fury and seduce you can cast 4-5 times while the rogue gets to do NOTHING. Its just important to remember that if you are weaving in seduce it has a 1.5 second cast an if you are weaving in seduce you cannot leave dots on the rogue (Careful timing of conflagrates if you use immolate, and no use of corruption or Curse of Agony) Obviously a well timed trinket can throw you off but the good thing about it is that if they blow their trinket before you get a second seduce/Fear off you get to soulfire them and that is not good for the rogue :P. The key to winning as destruction is to keep track of your DRs (remembering that fear and seduce are unfortunately on the same DR) Keeping as much distance as possible between you and the rogue at all times and learning how to weave in our couple of CC's to immobilize the rogue long enough to get some burst in. Obviously there will be a time in the fight where the rogue will pop his Cloak of skill and when this happens you just have to run away. Most of the time the rogue's sprint will be up or you will have crippling poison on you and he will catch up anyway, but the small amount of damage you avoided is always worth it. I try to save one fear/seduce DR for after cloak of shadow so I can distance again and get off one last bit of burst. Honestly here I still only have a 50/50 chance against rogues and it is frustrating, but it is what it is. Rogues are anti-cloth (and anti-everything it seems like) but this is how I try to deal with them. At least now I'm not struggling against rogues I massively out gear like I did when I played SL/SL. If I outgear them I can expect to win. If we are about equal then I have at least a fighting chance and thats all I ever wanted against rogues. I accept that there is counter classes and I accept that they are our counter but I don't think that they should tape a "FREE HK FOR ROGUES RIGHT HERE" to our backs either. -edit Also yes I'm quite aware that succubus' are extremely weak. The rogue doesn't see my succubus until after I seduce the first time If he doesn't trinket out of my deathcoil then I will usually weave in a seduce in my casting to distance myself more. At this point I've used 2/3 DR and if he takes the time to blind me and kill my succubus, as far as I'm concerned that was another 4 second CC which is more than I would of gotten if he had stayed on me. And if you chain together your attacks correctly barring a resist or an early trinket the rogue won't get a chance to blind your succubus.
Last edited by antiy4ho0; October 09, 2008 at 06:07 AM.. |
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October 09, 2008, 06:43 AM
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#110 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: Killing a Rogue...Written by a Rogue.
Felguard will wake up when you take damage, canceling the blind. A typical rogue can use his trinket, Will of the forsaken, and use CLOS to avoid seduce. But I agree that properly done, the succubus can be highly effective, especially for destruction. That is why you will love Soul Link for 11 pts and the new instant seduction in 3.0.2. The succubus is very much underestimated, but it is actually the best pet vs a rogue (Well I guess a Felguard is also very strong vs rogues). Part of the reason that you as destro can be rogues is that most rogues see you don't have SL and expect a free HK. Use that to your advantage.
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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