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February 09, 2009, 02:06 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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I can fix PVP
It's quite easy: I'm going to delete the resilience statistic forever. "That's stupid." LIES. Resilience is stupid, not this thread. How does one go about fixing this? Resilience is stupid because it forces people into a uniform. If you are going to force people into uniforms, then you may as well force people to play Druids in PVP and just let them pick their build. You cannot measure such a diverse sampling of classes (even with the "great merge" of 3.0) and not have one class reign supreme over another. Nor can you do so within the individual talent trees of the classes and force people to choosing living and being able to kill somebody else. This is further compounded by the amount of time necessary for different classes to deal damage. A rogue can deal unbelievable amounts of damage in a very short period of time. Yes, they have to be close, but there's a range limitation on every class. An Elemental Shaman has 1 maybe 2 spells that deal damage that are instant. And one of them will always have a CD. Warlocks are in this boat, as are Frost Mages. There's no consistent way to deal significant damages over short durations for these classes/specs. To compound this, Armor does what Resilience does, albeit to physical classes (Hunters, Feral Druids, Warriors, Ret Pallies, DK's, and Rogues). So classes with lower armor values are already in rougher shape, because they have to contend with no mitigation against these classes, outside of resilience. In many cases, the resilience is only going to help prevent critical strikes or diminish the damage received from these critical strikes. Whether the strike is critical or not is completely inconsequential when a non critical strike on a lower-armor-value class is as much as a critical strike on higher-armor-value class. Since many of the lower-armor-value classes require time to defend themselves, then there's a major disadvantage here: Not only are the extremely vulnerable, they can't move while contending with an onslaught of the interrupts and slowing effects that further delay the consummation of a cast or ability that would enable them to escape. Most others are instant. Now, I like PVP, I want to say that straight away, however, they only have one caster dps class correct right now: Arcane Mages put the fear of God in just about everybody they run across. I'm going to use that as a model: 1) They have reliable CC. 2) They have stealth. 3) They have two escape mechanims. 4) They have an instant cast that destroys just about everybody (whether it crits or not). 5) They have an effective snare (that further buffs their damage). If they are to continue with the status quo (resilience), this class/spec should be held as a benchmark as to the fact that every caster class is a glass cannon. Another perspective: Make PVP sets have higher armor and stamina values for caster classes. Put Clothies in Leather-equivalent armor values, put leather in mail equivalent armor values, Mail in plate equivalent armor values, and plate should get a slight boost. Nearly every single physical class has a means of lowering armor values and there is an armor penetration statistic that is dead right now that would act as a penalization to melee just as stacking resilience or the increased armor values would be to casters. You give up spell power for that resilience. Or stam for that armor value. There's a trade-off. It makes sense. Make them need armor penetration to achieve what they have now. Itemize properly: Caster gear should have haste, not crit. Why? Right now Resilience nullifies crit. Haste can turn fear to a 1 second cast. Haste means you live. Crit means you gave up item points to resilience. Which is stupid. Back to the top: I was saying I would get rid of resilience. And I would. There's no need for it as it just is a garbage stat right now. People should be crittable, however, they should be able to mitigate some of the damage they take. Pre-BC the best PVP gear was Tier Gear, and with how accessible raiding is now, there's really no reason this shouldn't be something we return to. In the majority of cases, you can clear 10 man Naxx once a week in about 3.5 hours. PVP gear right now requires more time spent getting splattered in BG's or arenas and then a further investment in getting adroit enough to have a rating to gain an actual improvement. The other option would be to make gear inconsequential in the Arena or Battleground. You get put into a uniform and skill is the ultimate determinant of who is good or not. Otherwise it doesn't make sense......at least not to me. Last edited by Tragik; February 09, 2009 at 02:08 PM.. |
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3 members liked this post. 0 members didn't.
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February 09, 2009, 03:08 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Warloco 80 Blood Elf Warlock Twilight's Hammer Euro PvP Guild: DeathWishers Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: I can fix PVP
I have to say that was an awesome post. +1 agreed with you!
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"There's nothing more exhilarating than pointing out the shortcomings of others, is there?" -Clerks |
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February 09, 2009, 03:47 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
littlesilver 80 Orc Warlock aerie peak US PvE PvP Guild: GM of SilversKillers Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/57/14 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Yes,Think this is the best all around post I have read that seriously looks at some of the problems that can be managed across the board.  "Great Post"
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{Were's That Dam Felgard At} |
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February 09, 2009, 03:52 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Mandalai 80 Human Warlock Skullcrusher US PvP Guild: Forgotten Prophets Talent Spec: 56/0/10 |
Re: I can fix PVP
you hit the nail on the head! 
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February 09, 2009, 04:04 PM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Mollytov 80 Tauren Death Knight Aggramar US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 17/0/54 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Well done. It's one of the best PvP is broken here's a good way to fix it post. |
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February 09, 2009, 11:22 PM
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#6 (permalink) | ||
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
First of all, thank you very much on your post. It is thoughtful and really takes a good look at the big picture. But just to keep the discussion going, I would like to offer some counter points. Let's start from the beginning: Quote:
The current system is very friendly for all kinds of players. You can access gear from just grinding honor, or get it much quicker using arena points, or use your surplus Emblems to gear up. Either way, this is great for ALL players. It doesn't matter if you are hardcore or casual, there is something for you to work for. I am a prime example of this, I have a 12 hour work day, and a busy family life. The fact is, I can never guarantee any sustainable period of time to raid, or even do a normal instance consistently. Even a normal instance run requires me to coordinate a week in advance. As such, pre-BC, all my PvP gear is from the honor grind/quests. Anyhow, I am never going to set foot in Naxx/Kara. Raiding is surely a lot more accessible now, but I don't see why the honor grind or 10 arena games are something that we should drop and return to pure raiding for gear. The current system is very flexible and makes everyone happy. BGs are often frustrating, but they are often very exciting too, when you get the luck to be in a good team playing against an equally challenging opposition. At the end of the day, you don't have to grind BG if you don't want to, but they should let those who like/can grind. On resilience and forcing people into uniforms: Think about how resilience came to be before you call for its deletion. Pre-BC, Tier 2 geared players have a field day vs non-tiered gear players. I was on that boat, and lamented that my inability to raid made me completely non-competitive vs players that can get into a raid. So Blizzard introduced the honor system and arena system to allow players who want/can pvp gear up. Resilience is introduced as a stat so high offence, high crit powered dps raid gear won't make PvP encounters painfully short. And it was painfully short most of the time pre BC. Now of course, resilience got out of hand towards the end of S3, S4 as games began to draw out and long, outlast games began to be the norm. The start of Wrath of the Lich King return us to Burstfest. But with resilience getting back up again, a balance is likely to be achieved when new gear is introduced. Anyhow, resilience serves to lower damage, and that is always desirable in PvP. Saying resilience is stupid is like saying the Hit Cap is stupid. What should I be forced to have +hit gear in order to raid? It is just Blizzard's way to keep subscriber working towards some gear in order to "progress". It can be resilience, it can be haste, it can be armor, armor penetration. I do absolutely agree that we should have a CHOICE in stacking armor if we so choose to itemize it that way. In fact, a lot of arena locks did stack armor items in S3, S4. Requiring certain amount of certain stats is really part of the business model. I don't think they should remove resilience, but rather, give us a choice to what to stack according to our needs. On Armor: The difference between physical damage and magic damage is that physical damage can be mitigated with armor, magic damage cannot be mitigated by anything(aside form cooldowns, or class specific abilities). I don't think necessarily that one is better than the other. You mentioned that classes with not much armor like us cannot mitigate physical damage, that is true. But on the flip side, no class (aside from being stupidly single minded in stacking resistance) can mitigate magical damage much either. So I don't think there are absolutely advantages here, just that the choice of gearing up is too inflexible at the moment. I agree with you that we should be allowed to have mitigation if we choose to, at the expense of whatever we choose. Quote:
I actually think the opposite in that they are just completely wrong. The amount of escapes, snares, invisibility, and magic resistance give them a huge amount of survivability. However, their dps output is also incredibly high, not to mention supremely easy to execute (instants). This is definitely not a glass cannon, more like a stealth F117A with photon torpedoes.... And this brings us into the next problem. It is that arena design definitely favour a certain style of play where instants, immune mechanics are superior. You can see that classes with these "outs" such as Ice Block, Cloak of Shadows, Divine Shield, anti magic shell will continue to dominate. The more variety of arenas there are, the fairer. For example, demonic teleport is exceptionally effective in BEM, and it is fine as long as we have other arenas that is not as skewed towards that arena. My suggestions: The fixes are so simple and obvious that it is quite clear it is NOT Blizzard's intention to have a balance situation at all. They want people to quit their locks and go for DKs. They will do this again and again, for MMORPGs, for their RTS, etc. It is just strikingly simple, burst is too high at the moment. The simple solution is to nerf burst damage to a point where it is just right. Arcane mages are ridiculously OP at the moment, and not terribly difficult to play. The simple thing is to nerf their damage. If they want to keep the damage, fine, make it non-instant. An elemental shammy requires set up time to actually get off a cast. That cast should really hurt. The arcane mage jumps around spamming arcane barrage, the damage really should be much lower. For warlocks, which previously relied on CC to survive, the fact there is fear immune mechanics everywhere is the culprit, in addition to the high burst environment. I mean, what do you do to a Berserked Feral druid? or a DK that chains Anti-magic shell, Lichborne, Strangulate and the tons of snares? Our dots and nukes, compared to other classes are underpowered. Our CC is ineffective in the face of immune mechanics. We have low survivability and basically no escapes. Make our dots and nukes hit harder to compensate our low survivability, unreliable CC and no escapes. Then there is a good risk/reward decision. Keep up the good work!
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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February 10, 2009, 02:15 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Re: I can fix PVP
On gear: I hear what you are saying, however, what I'm saying is that the gear could still be gotten from BG's or Arenas. In each case, if resilience is really viewed as necessity or as a balancing mechanic, then it already fails. Just as armor negates physical damage, resilience still doesn't counter anything but crit damage or the chance to be crit, which doesn't matter when that mage PoM'd Arcane Blast, then Hit Arcane Power, and a non-crit hits you for 8K. On Hit: You still need hit on PVP gear. Not as much, but not much less than you need to run heroics (which drop 10 man naxx level loot and take less time than most battlegrounds) if you factor in the way racial resistances work now. Overall: I can't say I disagree with you. They have no interest in balance, I think you stated that pretty well and to argue would be ignorant. Just as they said that PVE-wise Affliction warlocks would profit for the complex rotation and DoT maintenence necessary and most of us watched as the fights aren't long enough to show that, have too much movement involved for that, or to only see Mr. Arcane Mage blow away the boss and the entire wing the boss was on....... My suggestion was not to insult or demean people without flexible schedules, but to point out that I am really unhappy with alot of what they've done to us....... As I am going to change my sig to: "The class that commits suicide to kill should be the most dangerous class to let live." And that rings hollow. Just about everywhere. |
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February 10, 2009, 02:33 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
I get your point on Gear. I think what you are saying is that resilience is not adequate, it only counteracts crit damage and crit chance. So the point is not to remove resilience, but rather expand it to help non-crit damage as well. I think the only reason that this is not done is that they will have to tune PvE as well...... Right now, resilience definitely helps, but maybe burst is too crazy right now such that crit or no crit is no longer relevant. Maybe per pt of resilience should really include + armor, + resist, and maybe a bit less crit% reduction. Oh don't get me wrong, my post is in no way implying that you were demeaning others, it was a well thought out post.... Well, the good news is, apparently they are putting in some nerfs to burst damage, like 3.0.9 mutilate nerf...etc.. I just got passed 800 resilience, and I must say the difference is very significant.
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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February 10, 2009, 04:59 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
Character Info
Snacker 70 Gnome Warlock Zirkel des Cenarius Euro RP Guild: Heavens Fall Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 27/34/0 |
Re: I can fix PVP
awesome post, thanks |
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February 10, 2009, 06:25 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Illeandrys 80 Blood Elf Warlock Frostmourne Oceania PvP Guild: Loot the Core Hound Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Resilience does make a massive difference. I started S5 with about 450, and I basically had other teams wiping the floor with my corpse every match. I think my record for dying fastest was 0.5 seconds to rogue/feral druid. I still did great in BGs (better than at 70, in fact), so I put it down to class imbalance and decided to stop playing in the Arena for a few weeks and grab some better PvE (damage) gear. I used badges to get a 4-piece gladiator set, and now I don't die nearly as quickly. A rogue still takes me out before a CC chain wears off, but I actually have time to react. I've actually been surviving matches against rogue teams--although warlocks being effectively sap-immune does explain this quite a bit. I don't think taking resilience away will help at all. Reducing damage might work, but increasing survivability might work even better, since reducing some classes' damage to balance them in PvP would also really mess them up in PvE (such as rogues). I disagree with the idea that resilience doesn't help negate incoming damage. Think about damage breakdowns from Recount or other mods. Crits make up a HUGE amount of damage for a lot of classes, and reducing crit chance against you actually does help to mitigate damage. I do think that the opportunity cost of resilience in terms of other stats is a bit steep, but it's a given that players will gear towards whatever will give them the greatest success. For PvE, that's whatever stats are primary to your damage/healing/damage mitigation (ie hit > spellpower etc or whatever). For PvP, that happens to be a healthy amount of resilience and stamina. As an aside: Blizzard did NOT get Arcane Mages correct. They gave them too many tools compared to other classes that are useful in both PvE and PvP. Both raiding and PvP Arcane Mages use Arcane Potency/Presence of Mind and Arcane Barrage (not together) often to max out their burst damage. What warlock prioritizes using Shadow Bolt regularly in an Arena? |
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