| PvP, Battlegrounds & Arenas One on one dueling to full blown raids, anything PvP! |
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February 13, 2009, 12:15 PM
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#21 (permalink) | |
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Re: I can fix PVP
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And even with that, as you pointed out, Red, you need Hit for PVE. If the PVP gear doesn't have enough hit on it, then it becomes worthless. So I still fail to see what the repurcussions of bumping up warlock Armor and Stamina Values on their PVP sets are. Basically, if we're supposed to sit there and tank through most damage (which seems to be the preferred method across highest-rated arena locks), then we should either have gear or talents that put us in leather or mail levels of armor. Before somebody says that metamorphosis is supposed to do this, I will point out that you become Pally fodder and it only lasts 30 seconds. Losing the healing bonus on Fel Armor apparently hurt very bad for PVP, as well, killing Drain Life and Siphon Life quite a bit. Whatever you gain right now from swapping to demon armor is mathematically overcome by the amount of spell power you lose by swapping to that armor. |
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February 13, 2009, 09:52 PM
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#22 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Illeandrys 80 Blood Elf Warlock Frostmourne Oceania PvP Guild: Loot the Core Hound Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: I can fix PVP
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Sorry, going off topic. I don't think that Blizzard should have removed the extra Armor and Stamina from PvP gear, either. I think the real problem is that our class's play style, which is sustained damage and good CC but poor mobility compared to over classes. In an environment where burst damage and CC-breakers are so prevalent, the odds are definitely stacked against a class whose inherent strength is in outlasting while still maintaining damage output and some level of control. |
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February 14, 2009, 12:58 AM
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#23 (permalink) |
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Re: I can fix PVP
Blizz introduced resil as a pvp only stat. This shows they recognize that the pvp game is quite a bit different than the pve one. Yet they refuse to introduce a mechanic that goes something along the lines of, "Homicidal--all damage and healing is reduced by 50% when used against pvp flagged targets". Why? This would be an across the board debuff that only applied itself in Battlegrounds, Arenas, and when players engaged in world pvp. It would have zero effect on raiding/pve/questing. It would completely negate the burst problem that currently plagues pvp. The 50% could be tweaked to 90% or 20% or whatever. That's not the point, the point is that Blizz apparently acknowledges that pvp is too bursty yet they are afraid of nerfing PvE damage to correct the problem. Why not a simple mechanic to seperate the two? Is it really the case that they think people used to seeing 10k S-bolts will stop playing if those same S-bolts are only 5k during pvp? Perhaps they should consider that more people are likely to stop playing when they die within 5 seconds during any pvp encounter. The PvE and PvP are entirely different worlds, Blizzards refusal to treat them as such is mind blowing to me. |
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February 14, 2009, 11:30 PM
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#24 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Risotto 80 Gnome Warlock Perenolde US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
@Tragik The key issue for the balance of PvP and PvE has always been that WoW was designed as PvE game, with PvP more as an afterthought. As such, you have this constant issue of them building PvE balance, and then messing up PvP. I would always think you can easily do it the other way around, which is to balance PvP first, and then adjust raid bosses etc with the PvP values in mind. In my view, everything can be tuned, and everything CAN be balance, there is surely an intersection pt where burst/sturdiness meet. In S3, S4, Sturdiness>>>Burst. Now, it is Burst>>Sturdiness. Actually, I agree with you that things like Sta, Armor, Resist can be buffed to fix burst. And I think we can agree that resilience is just like +hit. Blizzard wants another stat for us to gear up so we continue to play our subscription. Things like resilience, +hit, haste, armor penetration, spell penetration, expertise are not in pre-BC. It makes sense from a business stand point to continue to introduce new mechanics too. Now back to the original core issue of burst vs resilience. I can now say with confidence that the issue has been overplayed. Let me explain. I have personally geared up for PvP 3 times, pre BC, BC, and in Wrath of the Lich King. I am mostly a casual player so I will get to max level relatively late. So the first few weeks of BG, arena, I will have relativeily poor gear and get 2, 3 shotted. This has been true for all 3 ocassions. The reason that we really felt this was 1) We just came off S4, the height of max resilience 2) Warlocks relied on tanking hits of SL while the other classes had escape 3) We haven't learned to used Demonic Teleport (at least I don't use it very well yet) 4) SL/SL (The most popular spec) was the MOST affected amongst all specs. So that is why PvP feels really stupid when we start Wrath of the Lich King PvPing. I have finally geared up (Welfare gear of course), and it is really not bad at all. In fact, we are starting to see some lock representations or viable combos surfaced. Eg. Shaman/Lock, Shaman/Lock/hunter. I am not saying we are completely fine of course; compared to mages, rogues, paladins, and DKs, we are very much 2nd tier. So I think if Bllizzard is balancing around max resilience, then we are not really in such a bad shape as being completely unviable. I am destro mostly so I am not going to complain too much about burst..( I managed to do a 9.3k chaos bolt yesterady.....) I think meta is fine. It is equivalent to BW for BM hunters. The only thing that is really stupid is the Glyph of Turn Evil. The cooldown to the glyph is a right step in the right direction. But honestly, if I were a paladin, I would really think twice about actually using that glyph. It is a MAJOR glyph, and it is only useful vs 2 classes. A paladin certainly have enough tools to deal with a lock anyways. I actually think paladins are less of a problem, other locks who can chain banish, then chain fear is the real problem why I don't spec meta myself. I very much agree that it is a real pain with Fel Armor and Demon Armor. They are so critical that using one over the others is very painful.
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What if what they really want is for us to herd our demons back into the void like we're doing? Because if we re-roll DKs, General, we do that, and everything that we have bled and fought and died for is over, and they've won. They've already won! |
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February 15, 2009, 12:53 AM
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#25 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Apostrof 80 Human Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Cyber Army Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Resilience should stay in game, its a good way to balance PvP while not affecting PvE part of the game. As for all other suggestions about damage debuff in BG and arenas it can be done just with tweaking resilience a little, maybe increase the damage reduction from crits or even affecting white damage, with a little testing resilience can be "fixed" to crete a sweet spot where burst is not insanely high and at the same time matches dont turn in 20 min. outlast fights. And reworking that one purely PvP stat to do its job is much easier than messing with other stuff that can create problems in PvE. The big problem for clothies in my opinion is itemization, and by that i mean PvP sets. Deadly Gladiator's Felweave Raiment Deadly Gladiator's Satin Robe Deadly Gladiator's Silk Raiment They are the same. Ok i understand why they worked on itemization in PvE and made all gear equally useful for all clases, merged +fire,shadow,healing... to make things a little easier (and far less interesting) but doing the same for PvP sets is just stupid. This item is PERFECT for arcane mage. Its a piece of crap for shadow priest or affliction warlock. For destro warlock its not that bad but haste is still needed. As destro im still going to buy " ****** of Subjugation " gear because i need to actually cast something while arcane mages just nuke with instants these days, and can stack ton of crit so even with ressilience they can crit fairly often. These days we have same HP as mages and they have X more tools to get away, kite, escape. Brutal Gladiator's Dreadweave Robe Brutal Gladiator's Satin Robe Brutal Gladiator's Silk Raiment They really need to give us back Dreadweave, or at least do something with Felweave, or even better make next season PvP gear the same for all casters but balance it for warlocks not arcane mages. |
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February 20, 2009, 06:26 PM
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#26 (permalink) | |
Status: NOT IN THE FACE!!!!
Character Info
Gritz 80 Orc Warlock Eldre'Thalas US PvE Guild: Fate Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: Destro |
Re: I can fix PVP
Quote:
Across the board faster casting could also help give casters a little more pew pew vs melee (less interrupts). |
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February 24, 2009, 08:36 AM
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#27 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Ftwanti 80 Undead Warlock Frostwolf US PvP Guild: Voidlords Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Wow kinda bummed I haven't been on these boards for a bit! Bravo OP! Anyways, I think everybody can agree that burst right now is entirely too high. What I would say is that, obviously resilience is not working. Unless Blizz wants PvP to be "Whoever has the highest burst and the longest immunities" its not working as intended. So why don't they change resilience to lower ALL incoming damage dealt by enemy players by a percentage. They could also tool it similar to armor values, where the higher you get, the less damage reduction you get per point. This means that players with higher resilience can soak more damage. Wasn't that the original plan? The only problem I can see is it turns into the only stat you look at when you build a PvP set. They would have to be careful to make sure the damage reduction isn't too high, but it needs to be high enough that there is reason to wear your Hateful gear over your T7.5 to your 10 games. S3 really felt right IMO, as far as the value of Burst vs healing. Survivability vs Damage. Double damage teams were viable, healer/damage was viable. There was room for pretty much every class in the game (Class, not spec. IMO theres work to be done there by blizz)to play well in arena. In the state of PvP now, unless you have an immunity or you can do 20k damage in 4 seconds you aren't winning. |
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May 16, 2009, 11:44 PM
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#28 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Ardvicio 80 Blood Elf Warlock Silverwing Hold PvP Guild: Dreamchaser Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/17/54 |
Re: I can fix PVP
This post is thoughtful. But does the resilience -> stamina/armor really control the burst fest better? Or would it bring us back to Vanilla where crit = win despite the increase of the defensive stats? |
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May 17, 2009, 04:27 AM
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#29 (permalink) | |
Status: Sit vis vobiscum.
Character Info
Supernex 80 Gnome Warlock Drak'thul US PvP Guild: Epic Drops Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
Quote:
Personally I think Redmage's post on the first page was excellent and I agree with him.
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May 20, 2009, 12:58 PM
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#30 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Sengir 80 Blood Elf Warlock Draenor US PvE Guild: Honor Guard Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/20/51 |
Re: I can fix PVP
I personnaly think having a PVP stat is requied and should never be removed as stated in the first message of this thread. Putting everybody in the same boat is not a good solution at all, PvE and PvP is VERY different and needs to stay different and has to have different sets of gear. I am all geared with PvP items since I mostly do Battlegrounds and Arenas. That is why, if I duel or engage fight vs a purely PvE geared player in a BG, I most of the time win, and most of the time without any issues. And this is also why when I go raiding will all my pvp gear on, I get slaughtered on the dps meter by other PvE warlocks, they have better spellpower and stack hit wich make em way better for what they geared for. THIS IS the way it has to be, I dont want PvE hit-capped players to be as damage/crit resistant as me, this would be ridiculous. I farm kills all day long and you farm computer bosses. You gear up to have a better dps, mana efficiency and the best hit capping. I gear up for stamina, burst damage, crit and resilience to tank damage. And it would be stupid to have pvp players do the same DPS as pve players. I mean, you do dungeons, I do battlegrounds / arenas, and in the end we would have the same dps vs a boss and we would have the same resilience (zero) vs players in battlegrounds? Ridiculous. PVP needs to be different, since the gameplay is WAY different than PvE. And having resilience is perfect to have both gameplay splitted. With that said about resilience, I still think PvP is broken right now. Maybe resilience is not enough, or melee is overpowered, or warlock is broken for pvp right now... I dunno but pre-Wrath of the Lich King I could tank 3-4 players with siphon life up spamming fears, dots and drain life. Now I die in the time of 1 ret pally stun, 1 warrior whirlwind, 1 rogue cheap shot, even if im being spam-healed by a priest.
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Sengir - PvP Warlock - Dreanor US http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&n=Sengir |
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