The Warlocks Den - WoW Warlock Discussions

Originally Posted by Shadowbomb

1) Verses a rogue how would you use the succi properly. I can see the initial attack of the Rogue being upset which is huge but from then on how would you use her. I mean once a dot is on seduce pretty much does not work. Not to mention it shares diminishing returns with fear too. **I can see that a destro lock who doesn't use dots would have an easier time but what about for the rest of the locks out there. Sorry I dont mean to put you on the spot or call you out. It is a serious question is all. please explain.

2) Also Please do break down the advantages and disadvantages to specifics/tactics/ and team comps (arena). Im curious and that would help to further the discussion. Might need to make 2 seperate posts here.

3) Last question verse melee in general. I like to start off using VW and then I switch to another pet depending on who I fight and only when needed...even the succi! So why would you prefer to just keep succi out all all the time. Why not start with VW and switch out? The only spots I see a problem here would be with a mage or a rogue...seeing how most classes are not mages and rogues it makes sense to me to start out with a VW. Again a serious inquary, not a challenge. This is also considering that the VW sacrafice has a smaller cool down then the 3 min fel domination so I can get 2-3 sacrafices out of him before my cool down is up. That is why I only switch out a pet if it is really needed. If I know it will be a tough fight or the odds are against me...
!

Originally Posted by Supernex

1) As you yourself said, the initial response to a Rogue opener is HUGE, which nothing can hadle that situation like Seduce. Most will agree on that. Next, DoTs, after the initial opener DoTs usually don't come until you can establish some distance (i.e., DT, Death Coil, Fear, Shadowfury...) many times you will need to re-Seduce. Regardless how you handle this with all its many variables, eventually you will need to get Immolate up, and when you do Seduce is less effective. At this point I have usually moved the Succubus over to another target while I am now working on the Rogue with Fear (now short), Deathcoil, Shadowfury...but even sometimes, when Immolate is on the Rogue, sometimes you just can get enough time to cast anything to peel him, so a Seduce timed right after a DoT tick can be extremely helpful.

2) This would be far to reaching for a post like this (at midnight with a grumpy baby no less, lol)...but let's take a popular Rogue team comp (RMP) and a popular Warlock team comp (RLS) and run a couple of common scenarios. Playing a Lock on a RLS you typically are setting the pace quickly, meaning that your own Rogue will open before the Rogue on the RMP, (as the RMP can set a slower pace due to superior CC and much better mana efficiency with their healer), 90% of the time the Warlock is NOT, I repeat NOT opened on, though you will usually get Sapped when the Rogue is on his way toward your Shaman. The Mage will try to keep you away from peeling the Rogue off the Shaman and this is where I find Succubus to be extremely helpful (when not saving myself from a rogue opener)...when I face a RMP I will usually park my Succubus closer to the Shaman so that when the Rogue opens on him I can Seduce him even though I am out of range and out of LOS, giving time to my healer to escape, or buy some time until myself and/or our Rogue can make the switch to the opposing Rogue. The Felhunter is nice against this comp too, but for much different reasons...but we are primarily comparing the Succubus' advantages over the VW here. Since 90% of the time the Warlock is last to go, not having a CC pet out (Succ/FH) the VW isn't much help. Even the stealth detection isn't all that great on a RLS vs. RMP because you can't sit back and wait as a RLS, you have to be aggressive and get in their face ASAP.

There are many more strategies in RLS vs. RMP alone, (let alone all the other popular comps you are likely to face), but I simply do not have the time right now to get into to that.

3) While I have done this a few times, I quickly found out the main reason why not to start off with the VW Sac > Succ/FH...this is because with the Succubus you will want her for opening protection, as many teams WILL try to kill you (or your pet) first. You can try to VW Sac > hard summon and hope the shield is actually put to use before the 30 sec if over, but I wouldn't waist a Fel Dom in there if I didn't have to, because if you Fel Dom a Succubus they will likely kill it fast, and you will not be able to Fel Dom another one. There have been times with certain cleave comps that were training me that I Fel Dom'd a VW in for the Sac, but not usually the other way around. You also mentioned that it would be a bad idea vs. Mages & Rogues, but I am sure you realize that one of the most common comps has BOTH of those classes (RMP)...and besides, the Succubus CC plays a big role in bursting down an opponent during the Heroism without having to spend time casting CC spells from the Warlock.

That is a brief, very brief overview of how I typically play RLS. (I also have some tips for the same team but using the Felhunter...but we will have to go deeper into this another time.)

Originally Posted by Shadowbomb

While I would argue you have a compelling argument in all three scenarios mentioned above, I would also argue that they are all catered to arena style playing and are still very circumstantial.

BG's play out so very differently then arena. I cant speak for most people but I do for myself when I say I BG soo much more then I do arena. Arenas are very partner dependent and my partners and I have different scheduals that dont allow us to arena as much as we like. I would think that most PvP'ers out there are in the same boat...meaning that they BG more then arena. maybe I am wrong there, I dont know. Anyway my point is that in a BG the circumstances change and I see things a little differently then you do on your latest post.

Succi is a great opener vs a rogue. I did admit as much and I do see the value there. I feel I should point out that for the last 8 months I have been playing my lock I was a die-hard Succi fan so I am familiar with them and I agree that they provide us locks with a way to get the jump on our opponent rather then the other way around. The one thing I argue that I have seen played down way too much is the paranoia effect that consume shadows gives off. I have it set on a hot key so I use it at I dismount and I will try and use it while I am fighting others. People, I cant tell you how many times I pull rogues from stealth before they get the jump on me. Even with succi my experience shows me that they are gonna pound you a bit before suduce can be used. Even then a trinket pulls them out to either vanish or 'Kidney shot(?)' so you both come out of the effects at about the same time. And this is before I use the shield. If he does get a cheap shot off I trinket (try to wait tell after the kidney shot) and DC. I dont use the shield to with-stand his initial attack...I use it for the remainder of the fight. I ususally try and force a CoS while I have my shield up...that way it is there for his second attack...but im also using consume shadows again which also helps. The last reason I like VW vs Rogues is cause it allows him to be feared for longer periods of time too. All in all they are tough fights and a good rogue has the advantage regardless of the pet.

*Question*
Does anyone remember how crappy it was to loose paranoia from the fel puppy? Well we did get it back, it just requires a little bit of timing and creativity to use.

As for arenas I know from the get-go if I am fighting a rogue (or another stealthy) so using consume shadows gives us the openning advantage. AT LEAST in our twos team. With three's I totally agree with you however and you wont find any arguement from me there. CC from succi is far greater the shield in threes or fives.

In regards to fighting melee in general I like to start with Void. Remeber Im talking BG's here too. This means I wont be coming up against the honed war machines of arena that have good communication and an executable game plan. I pop shield and quickly switch out to puppy of succi. the shield goes a longer way then most give it credit for. 10K health is a lot. I wish I could add that to my overall stam. It translates to one crit from a well geared Death Kight, sure, but that still one crit you didnt have hit you...and if they dont crit then they can spend the next five seconds burning it down while I dot, fear, and nuke! It also tranlates over to time and as we know the longer the fight, the greater the warlocks advantage. We also got our other pet out hepling out at this point too. If they want to focus the pet and not me, fine, I will attack them while they kill my pet...again longer fights = our advantage. It is usually enough to tip the fight in my favor anyways. Actually in BG's I find the fight hardly ever even needs a resummons of any kind...and I almost never loose any of my pets...just my experiences.

Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Supernex

Agreed, BG's are a different bag than arena, (and I do more BG's than arena these days too), but the main reason I gave arena examples instead of BG examples is because if you die in a BG it is of very little impact, but if you die in arena it is of TREMENDOUS impact. In BG's there is much more viability for anyone's particular pet of choice really, but in arena I think that the choice of pet makes a much more significant impact. I used to strictly use the Felhunter for PVP, but when it lost the stealth detection (also when I became a bigger fan of Destro), I started playing with the Succubus about 50% of the time. I tried different pets in arena, but my teammates continually asked for me to use the Succubus as it helped them out more than the magic dispells from the Felhunter. I find both the Felhunter and the Succubus to be equally viable, but in the playstyle of RLS I prefer the Succubus do to the fact that I can CC with the pet which largely improves the pressure I can put out when I do not have to spend as much time casting Fears.

In 2's I have used the VW a bit more than in 3's, but I still generally find the Succubus to be a much more useful pet (for me anyway). Many of the teams we faced were Ret/DK and several times I had the VW shield taken down in one global (9.7k Obliterate anyone? lol...and they worried about our Conflag damage...(-_-) )

Dueling:
I have dueled plenty of rogues on my lock, and plenty of locks on my rogue, and in both cases I found the Succubus to be the greater pet. On my Rogue I would still be able to get the Cheap Shot off even if I was detected by Consume Shadows about 80% of the time, leaving me to burn through their Sac and then reset the fight without the shield (if need be)...and vice versa on my lock. Again, I feel as though I use the Succubus better than most people, (arena partners have confirmed this), so this may be why I find it to be a more useful pet 99% of the time when compared to the VW, (a CloS'd Rogue being the other 1%.)

Playstyle:
Imprtant! If you are not good at a pet, or do not like playing with a certain pet (like the VW for me), then either practice with that pet or avoid it if you can. I think this part is obvious enough though. We don't have to all play with the same spec/race/pet/skills/teammates/etc to be effective, if we did the game would be boring - that being said though, there are usually some of these things that work better together than others too.

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I am going to get some food now, but I hope that some of what I said answered your questions.

Originally Posted by XavronMG

The big problem with each of our pets having special PvP abilities (and us being balanced around them) is that you will never have the pet out that you need when you need it.

It worked much better when the choice was simply felpuppy or succubus. Trying to work a 3rd pet (the VW) into PvP is asking a bit much.

(They need to give us Paranoia back... not on the felpuppy, but attached to the location where we've put own our Demonic Portal.)