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August 28, 2008, 09:40 PM

#1 (permalink)

Pernicious

Status: <Demon Trainer>

Character Info
Pernicious
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Dark Iron US PvP
Guild: Allmacht
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

New information on Buff/Debuff Stacking

*** Merged all posts on this topic as they were scattered across multiple threads ***

Some information on Buff/Debuff Stacking. Sorry if this isn't new.

Game Mechanics - WotlkWiki - Wrath of the Lich King Information

Quote:

The expansion will be introducing a sweeping change to how different buffs and debuffs stack with each other. Below is the full post by Zarhym on the Beta Forums, but the basic idea is: All buffs and debuffs have been placed in categories, and these categories no long stack with each other.
This is the full post (the most pertinent points have been bolded):

With the release of upcoming content patch players will see a change in the way we allow buffs and debuffs to stack exclusively in a raid. For the most part, what this change means is that many buffs and debuffs that were previously allowed to stack together no longer can, and that many buffs and debuffs that only a single talent specialization could bring can now be brought by multiple different specializations. The philosophy behind this change shows up in many of the changes we have made in Wrath of The Lich King, such as when we made almost all buffs raid-wide. We want players to be able to form raids and parties based on who they want to play with, rather than who has the correct talents and abilities to min-max their raid performance.

Raid composition will still matter to some extent, but without this change, it would have overwhelmed every other aspect of raid planning (as we added new capabilities to each of 30 different talent trees). You no longer need to rigidly control the melee/spellcaster balance of your raid, or make sure every group has all the critical buffing classes, etc. This change has many class balance implications.

IMPORTANT! Before we are done, we will thoroughly test the performance of every class. It should not be assumed that one class' current performance relative to others in beta is final.

There are thirty or so different categories into which buffs and debuffs fit. Here you will find a comprehensive list of the changes made broken down by category and which spells/talents are in that category.

Some classes (and specializations) will need to be reduced in power and some increased. Many may feel the change has more impact on class X than class Y. We will address all of those concerns via our internal testing and community feedback.

Armor Debuff (Major): Acid Spit (exotic Hunter pet), Expose Armor, Sunder Armor
Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness
Physical Vulnerability Debuff: Blood Frenzy, (2nd Talent Spec TBA)
Melee Haste Buff: Improved Icy Talons, Windfury Totem
Melee Critical Strike Chance Buff: Leader of the Pack, Rampage
Attack Power Buff (Flat Add): Battle Shout, Blessing of Might
Attack Power Buff (Multiplier): Abomination's Might, Trueshot Aura, Unleashed Rage
Ranged Attack Power Buff: Hunter's Mark (only Hunters benefit, so no need to exclude against other class abilities)
Bleed Damage Increase Debuff: Mangle, Trauma
Spell Haste Buff: Wrath of Air Totem
Spell Critical Strike Chance Buff: Moonkin Aura, Elemental Oath
Spell Critical Strike Chance Debuff: Improved Scorch, Winter's Chill
Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements
Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact
Increased Spell Hit Chance Taken Debuff: Improved Faerie Fire, Misery
Percentage Haste Increase (All Types): Improved Moonkin Aura, Swift Retribution
Percentage Damage Increase: Ferocious Inspiration, Sanctified Retribution
Critical Strike Chance Taken Debuff (All types): Heart of the Crusader, Totem of Wrath
Melee Attack Speed Slow Debuff: Icy Touch, Infected Wounds, Judgements of the Just, Thunderclap
Melee Hit Chance Reduction Debuff: Insect Swarm, Scorpid Sting
Healing Debuff: Wound Poison, Aimed Shot, Mortal Strike, Furious Attacks
Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout
Stat Multiplier Buff: Blessing of Kings
Stat Add Buff: Mark of the Wild
Agility and Strength Buff: Strength of Earth Totem, Horn of Winter
Stamina Buff: Power Word: Fortitude
Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact
Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence
Spirit Buff: Divine Spirit, Fel Intelligence
Damage Reduction Percentage Buff: Grace, Blessing of Sanctuary
Percentage Increase Healing Received Buff: Tree of Life, Improved Devotion Aura
Armor Increase Percentage Buff: Inspiration, Ancestral Healing
Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison.

In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants spirit and intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the spirit value from Fel Intelligence.

In most cases, fully-talented players will have exactly equal power on the strength of these buffs and debuffs. Fel Intelligence is an example of where one ability is weaker than others. The buffs in the "Increased Spell Power Buff" category are also not all the same potency, as they scale and grow in radically different ways. In virtually every other case, however, the buffs are equal. This means, for example, that fully-talented Battle Shout and Blessing of Might now grant the exact same amount of attack power.

In addition to this change, we also needed to address the "mana battery" roles in a raid. The mana regeneration effect they grant is no longer limited to their own party, and it no longer depends on the amount of damage they deal. Each time they trigger the mana regeneration effect, 10 people in their raid group will receive a buff which causes them to regenerate 0.5% of their maximum mana each second. This buff, Replenishment, will be given preferentially to raid members with the lowest mana, but will re-evaluate which raid members receive it each time it is fired. Replenishment is provided by Shadow Priests, Survival Hunters, and Retribution Paladins.

Finally, we have modified Heroism and Bloodlust to affect the entire raid. However, all affected raid members will be unable to cast or benefit from Bloodlust/Heroism for 5 minutes.

Below you will find a list of the changes to abilities which exhibit new behavior regardless of the exclusive categories. The changes usually mean the old behavior was removed and replaced by the new behavior. Numbers listed are for maximally-talented versions. Here is that list of changes:

Improved Scorch: Increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
Winter's Chill: Also increases spell critical strike chance against the target.
Elemental Oath: Grants 5% spell crital strike to raid members.
Improved Moonkin Aura: Grants 3% haste of all types.
Earth and Moon: Increases spell damage taken from all schools by 13% on the target.
Misery: Causes spells cast at the target to have +3% spell hit.
Shadow Weaving: Buffs only self.
Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.
Expose Weakness: Buffs only self.
Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.
Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
Fel Intelligence: Has replacement ranks that grant flat values of Intellect and Spirit.
Frost Aura: Excludes properly against all other resistance buffs.
Grace: Reduces damage taken by target by 3%.
Rampage: Increases melee and ranged critical strike chance by 5% for the raid.
Improved Faerie Fire: No longer benefits melee and ranged hit chance, only spell hit.
Hunter's Mark: No longer increases attack power bonus from attacks against the target.
Improved Hunter's Mark: No longer grants melee attack power.
Sting (Hunter pet): Now acts as a minor armor debuff.
Waylay: Attack speed reduction changed to 20%.
Icy Touch: Only slows melee attack speed (not ranged or spell).
Tree of Life: No longer grants healing based on spirit, grants 3% increased healing received to raid.
Demonic Pact: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
Focus Magic: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.
Totem of Wrath: Now grants a flat amount of spell damage, and all enemies in its radius have an increased chance of being struck by criticals.
Heroism: Cannot be recast while caster has Exhausted debuff, and those with Exhausted debuff cannot be affected by it.
Bloodlust: Cannot be recast while caster has Sated debuff, and those with Sated debuff cannot be affected by it.
Vampiric Touch: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on dealing damage.
Hunting Party: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on specified shots.
Judgements of the Wise: Grants Replenishment mana regeneration buff to up to 10 raid members on Judging.

*** Information added 16 Minutes and 16 Seconds later... ***

Blizzard mentioned before that the Debuff slots on mobs greatly increase bandwidth used by the game and in tern affects performance. I suspect that the Curse of Shadows/Elements merge was designed to free up one of those Debuff Slots. All the changes listed above (no more stacking debuffs) seem to also address this issue. With a New Class, many more Debuff slots would have to have been added. This change fixes that slightly.

Now, warlock specifics:

Quote:

Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.
Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.
Blood Pact: Grants health instead of Stamina.
Demonic Pact: Now buffs raid instead of debuffing monsters.

Interesting changes. No more will you see the Imp. Shadowbolt effect being consumed by other locks or Shadow Priests. Its all ours. However, this destroys the group Synergy we have with those classes and each other.

Shadow Embrace change removes it as a debuff on the target, and thus as an extra debuff for an additional 5% Life Drain.

Blood Pact now granting health over Stamina worries me. Traditionally, Health gains are far less over all than stamina gains.

What do you all think?

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August 28, 2008, 09:53 PM	#2 (permalink)
Carabar Character Info Carabar 70 Gnome Warlock Emerald Dream Euro PvE Guild: Exiles Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Buff / Debuff Stacking in WotLK From WoW Forums -> Changes to Debuffs, Buffs, and Raid Stacking Basically they are combining buffs into specific categories, and the strongest buff in that category wins; i.e. only one per category, they do not stack (okay, so that was announced some time ago). The following affect us directly as warlocks, meaning it concerns stuff we have, some of it being old news (CoT & poison for instance). I have marked two that I found particularly ... surprising let's say : - Armor Debuff (Minor): Faerie Fire, Sting (Hunter pet), Curse of Recklessness - Increased Spell Damage Taken Debuff: Ebon Plaguebringer, Earth and Moon, Curse of the Elements - Increased Spell Power Buff: Focus Magic, Improved Divine Spirit, Flametongue Totem, Totem of Wrath, Demonic Pact - Attack Power Debuff: Demoralizing Roar, Curse of Weakness, Demoralizing Shout - Health Buff: Commanding Shout, Blood Pact - Intellect Buff: Arcane Intellect, Fel Intelligence - Spirit Buff: Divine Spirit, Fel Intelligence - Cast Speed Slow: Curse of Tongues, Slow, Mind-numbing Poison Quoting the blue on the Fel Intelligence part: "In each category, you can only benefit from the most powerful spell granting that effect. For example, Fel Intelligence grants Spirit and Intellect, both weaker than Arcane Intellect and Divine Spirit. If a player has Fel Intelligence and receives a stronger Arcane Intellect buff, he will gain the intellect value from Arcane Intellect and the Spirit value from Fel Intelligence." So if you have a mage and a priest in the raid, why do they take a affliction lock with felhunter with them again...?

August 28, 2008, 09:59 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lessic Character Info Lessic 80 Undead Warlock Darkspear US PvP Guild: Tarren Mill Deathguard Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 56/0/15	Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK Actually last i saw on Haunt... Bane won't affect it but that's cause the cast time has been reduced to 1.5

August 28, 2008, 09:59 PM

#4 (permalink)

Slartibart

Character Info
Slartibart
70 Gnome Warlock
Spinebreaker US PvP
Guild: Omerta
Talent Spec: 21/40

Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK

Quote:

Originally Posted by iszuel

Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.

Wow.... That'll change a few things...

August 28, 2008, 10:34 PM

#5 (permalink)

Barkle

Character Info
Barkle
80 Undead Warlock
Rexxar US PvE
Guild: Corpus Vile
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/41/30

Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK

Quote:

Improved Shadow Bolt: Buffs only self.

Queue the QQ!

I'm still on the wait and see path. Certainly looks like the old 0/21/40 SB nuker is gone. Curious to see what comes next.

August 28, 2008, 10:59 PM

#6 (permalink)

iszuel

Character Info
Iszuel
70 Undead Warlock
Blackhand US PvE
Guild: Ominous Latin Name
Profile:
Talent Spec: 0/21/40

Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK

Quote:

Shadow Embrace: Buffs only self.

Guarantees it a first class seat on the useless-talents-train now.

Other than that, while it is very different, it makes me excited to see how they buff Locks given the amount of redundancy they now potentially bring.

August 28, 2008, 11:09 PM

#7 (permalink)

Barkle

Character Info
Barkle
80 Undead Warlock
Rexxar US PvE
Guild: Corpus Vile
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/41/30

Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK

Quote:

Originally Posted by iszuel

Guarantees it a first class seat on the useless-talents-train now.

Don't know that I'd go there. 15% of your damage for 12 seconds ain't nothing to sneeze at. It sure is a helluva lot less useful than it was, but I wouldn't call it useless.

We've had lots of hints that they want Destruction locks using fire, and this seems to be the last big clue-by-four. For Affliction locks however, it still looks like a real nice talent. Remember, Affliction will have Corruption, Siphon Life and UA running, and possibly Curse of Agony or CoD. 15% of those, plus 15% of your next 3-4 SBs or Haunts ain't too shabby. Hmm... does it increase the healing return on Haunt? If Haunt is returning 20% of all the damage you did while the debuff is up, it certainly should benefit from the ISB buff.

My biggest fear is that they make it a buff on the player and not a debuff on the boss. If it is a buff on the player, it affects spell casts, not damage done. If that is the case, then its bloody useless.

August 28, 2008, 11:22 PM	#8 (permalink)
iszuel Character Info Iszuel 70 Undead Warlock Blackhand US PvE Guild: Ominous Latin Name Profile: Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: Latest Blue Posts on WOTLK You're thinking of Demonic Pact, which is in the Demo tree, although it's 10% fully talented not 15%. That is a very useful talent, especially since it now is a straight buff to the raid. This is shadow embrace, the 5 point talent in affliction that debuffs the damage done by a target by 5%. According to this, it now only affects the damage done to the warlock who cast it. It wasn't all that great to begin with. Now, useless. Last edited by iszuel; August 28, 2008 at 11:26 PM..

August 29, 2008, 12:01 AM	#9 (permalink)
Coud	Re: Buff / Debuff Stacking in WotLK radical changes incoming! omg ~_~ wtb ptr so tests can happen

August 29, 2008, 12:30 AM	#10 (permalink)
Ryltar Character Info Diatt 70 Human Warlock Emerald Dream US RP PvP Guild: Courage	Re: Buff / Debuff Stacking in WotLK Well frack. With these changes to buffs/debuffs, it looks like Affliction warlocks will be complete scrap now. If Affliction warlocks aren't revamped, My own will die (Nooo!!) and something else will come in his place...

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