| Instances & Raiding The PvE side to 80... everything relating to instances and raiding. From Wailing Caverns to Uldaar and beyond! |
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July 08, 2009, 12:40 PM
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#101 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Seurot 80 Undead Warlock Arthas US PvP Guild: Remorseless Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/14/54 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Yes, they can tune 10s harder. But it won't happen. Like some of you have said, Blizz caters to the market. And looking at history, the market says make it easier, not harder. Every single new instance has had people QQing about it not being easy enough. So they nerf everything down so that anyone can do them for the sake of 'fun'. So people can talk all they want about wanting harder tuned 10s, but it won't happen. The general population player would QQ so much that a new river of tears forms over Northrend. Only thing to 'equalize' would be detune the 25s. Which would kill the 25s cause why bother with the 25 when its the same loot as 10s. but with a ton more associated headaches. For exmaple, we 1 shot 10 Yogg, but need 4-6 wipes on 25 cause there's always at least 1 or 2 who can't stay out of clouds for some reason. Believe it or not, part of the diffculty of an encounter is when it requires more people cause its more people that have to do the job right for the groups success. |
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July 08, 2009, 02:29 PM
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#102 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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That way you please the QQ'ing masses as well as the QQ'ing hardcores. If the only real reason for 25's to exist (or 10's for that matter) is that people want the loot despite the experience, then 25's should go away. If people like them for what they are, they should stay. But there shouldn't be a reward bias in favor of 25's. Reward bias should be in favor of any encounter that's just really tough to do successfully. |
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July 08, 2009, 03:14 PM
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#103 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kiralyn 80 Human Warlock Mal'Ganis US PvP Guild: Self Titled Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0.13.58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Let me see if I can inject more logic into this thread... A group of people are saying that their beef is that in order to get the best the game has to offer, they would have to run 25s instead of 10s, but they prefer 10s. The argument in (intristic) difficulty between 10s and 25s is either out of game (guild management, herding cats) or falls on the minority of players (raid leadership), and any actual difficulty is tuned in by Blizzard. Guess what! You are correct! Having led 25s for the past 2.5 years (good lord I need a break), I can honestly say that the headaches are all generated by out of raid, management-type responsibilities. Everything from recruitment to invites to DKP to, when necessary, discipline in the raid, has nothing at all to do with the actual act of playing the game. However, those out of game headaches are always going to be present, and really need to be accounted for. You have to also look at the results of changing loot the way it has been suggested. I don't remember if it was in this thread or a similar one, but someone brought up a very good point which I will now steal; people will always choose the path of least resistance. If you were to tell me that I could get the exact same reward in a 10-man raid as a 25, there would no longer be any reason for me to invest the additional time it takes to administrate that group. We would break up into 10s and complete the content. The majority of raids would do the same. 25-man raiding would die, and you would see it disappear in the next expansion. That's only 90% true. I would be hard pressed to break up our current raid group because of the relationships in our guild. We have more than 20 people that we enjoy playing with, and denying those people a spot would not be fun. One other thing to bring up, and I'm not sure how many people were lucky enough to experience this. Killing Nef for the first time, and hearing 40 people cheering over vent, was a great moment in gaming. Killing Archi, and hearing 25 people cheering over vent, while awesome, wasn't as cool as Nef. Taking that number down to 10 people I think would dilute the 'epic' feel of raids even more. And that would be a real loss. If the final argument is if 25-mans have a place in the game or if we need to focus only on 10s, that's fine. But there has to exist a gulf in reward between the two, or else one WILL die out. Maybe that's what Blizzard will decide, but there are easier ways to kill those raids.
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Hell, it's about time. -Tychus Findlaw Last edited by Kiralyn; July 08, 2009 at 03:16 PM.. |
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0 members liked this post. 1 members didn't.
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July 08, 2009, 03:29 PM
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#104 (permalink) | |||
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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Since the game should be all about enjoyment and achievement, why factor tedium into reward? Reward true difficulty instead. That way the best stuff isn't from the path of least resistance, it's from the truly challenging hardmodes only. Quote:
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I think there's definitely a place for these big experiences you're talking about. I would love to be a part of a massive 40 man group that really does overcome a challenge. Maybe Blizz just needs to be clerverer than "same raid, more HP, better loot" Would be awesome to see a huge server wide event or 100 man raid in the spirit of world bosses. Things that don't take a ton of time, are puggable, but still leave you feeling you've been part of a real event. |
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July 08, 2009, 03:54 PM
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#105 (permalink) | |
Character Info
RomaGoth 80 Human Warlock Durotan US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 30/41/0 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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If I want your opinion I'll have my Felguard beat it out of you. |
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July 08, 2009, 04:05 PM
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#106 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Seurot 80 Undead Warlock Arthas US PvP Guild: Remorseless Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/14/54 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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July 08, 2009, 04:14 PM
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#107 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
RomaGoth 80 Human Warlock Durotan US PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 30/41/0 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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 Especially with a 4-6 hour raid session. Heh, it would take a week just to down one boss. 
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If I want your opinion I'll have my Felguard beat it out of you. |
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July 08, 2009, 04:35 PM
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#108 (permalink) | ||
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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July 08, 2009, 09:15 PM
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#109 (permalink) | |||||
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Character Info
DoomOracle 80 Undead Warlock Cho'gall US PvP Guild: J U G G E R N A U T Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/14/54 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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To these points I would also like to add that positioning in 25s is much more complicated. Certain boss rooms in Ulduar are actually bigger in heroic than in normal (Iron Council for example), which is to partly compensate for this issue. Chain reactions to errors are more likely to happen in the 25s. This issue is closely related to the positioning issue. Chain lightening or a chained Frost Tomb (on KT), for example, is much more likely to happen in a 25man. Now that I think of it, almost every encounter (in Ulduar at least) has an additional difficulty due to the greater number of people. Kolo has eyebeams that can't be dragged over other players. Thorim has chain lightning that's an absolute pain in 25. Mimiron has napalm and Rapid Burst. Council hard mode has static disruptions and runes of death... I could go on, but the point is that having an extra 15 people there makes these abilities harder to deal with. The fact of the matter is that managing and coordinating 25 people provides an additional challenges, both mechanical and social. These have been referred to as a headaches, and sometimes they are. Some people enjoy the extra challenge, and some (such as yourself) would prefer to avoid it, but leaving the effort unrewarded is only going to discourage the people who want to take that challenge on. I've just realised that this is all sort of on a tangent to your initial question, though: Quote:
What you're really asking is "Why does blizzard prefer 25 and not 10?" I have briefly touched on this before, but have shied away from the whole discussion, because even though I know conceptually why blizzard has chosen 25s as the flagship size, I don't know if I could communicate it clearly enough to have a coherent debate about it. But there is one point that I have only briefly mentioned. Balance. Right now, as I'm sure you are all aware, there is a bit of an upheaval in the arenas. Blizzard has decided to eschew the 2v2 bracket, but making the rankings not count to some extent (the details are changing weekly atm). The reason that they have done this is that as a group gets smaller, the differences between the classes become more and more apparent, and the amount of things you can safely assume about a group diminishes. This makes it harder and harder to balance things. To put it into the context of 10v25, blizzard can assume that there will be at least 1 player of each class in most 25 man raids. Obviously they can't assume this about a 10, because there is only one raid comp that would have all 10. This means that they have to assume that in a normal 10 man raid there will be a substantial number of buffs, debuffs, and class abilities missing. For example: the difference between having a Pally and a Shaman or having an extra DK and Rogue is pretty immense. It's impossible for them to predict which classes will be missing. Is your raid missing a Kings? Is it missing a source of replenishment? How about a bloodlust? Now, they have partly solved this problem with their "bring the player not the class" policy. They've spread quite a few abilities out among the classes to lessen the issue. But they don't want to homogenize things too much. Each class should have something unique to bring to a raid, otherwise the classes don't feel separate and special. So part of the problem with 10s is that Blizzard can't really tune any of the encounters to take your raid to the ragged edge of what's possible. They must assume that because the raid comps will vary so much, some of the raids will be hamstrung. If they tune encounters to be extremely difficult, imbalanced raid comps will have zero chance of progressing. This means that guilds would have to make sure that each class was represented in their raid, and you're back where you started. Friendly 10s would be unable to progress as far as the 10s formed from larger guilds where there are more players to pick from. Hardcore players still have all the better loot because they are willing to sacrifice more for progression. We would wind up right back here having a similar discussion. This time it would be about how unfair it is that you can't get the gear you want because none of your friends are playing class X, and you can't progress because this makes the encounters just a bit harder without it. Blizzard has solved this problem by making 10s a bit easier, so that imbalanced raid comps can progress. (6DKs 4Pallies GOGOGO! )With 25s the problem all but disappears. Blizzard can tune encounters with the assumption that there will be at least one of each class available to raid, they can make the encounters even more challenging. Everything becomes easier to balance, because they know that there will be much less raid composition variance, and therefore all the buffs, debuffs, abilities, etc. will be represented. Nearly impossible encounters like Yogg +0 can only exist because the class imbalances and composition variances are absorbed by the larger raid structure. In addition, there is more room for the "bring the player not the class" philosophy, because, once you have all your classes covered, the fact that you have 5 DKs won't be so much of an issue that you have to sub one out. Cor blimey! That one point became a lot longer than I expected it to be. Here's a TLDR version: Blizzard prefers 25s, because they are easier to balance for than 10s. P.S. I still think you should finish Uld10, fiz. You have no idea of what you're missing out on while you waste time complaining about it. Amazing instance imo. EDIT________________________ Quote:
Grasp. That is all.
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Got a question about Warlock gear? Just looking for an upgrade? Check out Warlock gear: A Guide for everything you need to know about Warlock Equipment. Find it at wowmb.net/forums/f104/35592-warlock_gear_guide/ Last edited by Falcrist; July 08, 2009 at 09:32 PM.. |
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July 08, 2009, 11:22 PM
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#110 (permalink) | |||||||
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
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Edit : As I re-read my post, my responses are becoming more combative, and while it was fun to discuss to begin with, think it's time to drop it. Thanks for the discussion. Yes, even you Falcrist (debate, after all is rewarding) Last edited by fizboz; July 08, 2009 at 11:25 PM.. |
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