| Instances & Raiding The PvE side to 80... everything relating to instances and raiding. From Wailing Caverns to Uldaar and beyond! |
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June 25, 2009, 01:46 PM
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#11 (permalink) | |
 
Status: Subscriber
Character Info
Dyson 80 Human Warlock Scilla US PvP Guild: Eden Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
Hodir Hard mode -- ideal with heavy caster makeup and emphasizing caster buffs Steelbreaker Hard mode -- tuned to heavy DPS 10man versions of these are trivial by comparison. On regular mode, Yogg is also tuned to be quite a bit more difficult on 25man. Getting the right buffs in the portal group and balancing them with the buffs up top so both groups work as a team (not to mention it being much easier for 1/25 people to hit a cloud accidently versus 1/10) as well as for teh raid leader to see whose messing up. -- Examples in Naxx where 25 is significantly harder: Thaddius for one. Even if you geared up through a few weeks of Naxx25, Thaddius on 25 was a significant stopper of pugs and early guild runs if even 1 or 2 people messed up charges. In 10man, you can lose 2 people easily and still reach enrage timer. 4HM is a good counter example, but it's more often the case that 25man is harder and more complex battles to coordinate as well as trying to make sure you have all buffs available because blizz is counting on it (to some degree) when they tuned the 25man encounters. Otherwise, if you went into a 25man with an unbalanced group and won, balanced groups would find the 25man content trivial. And it certainly isn't entirely trivial yet in Ulduar (even easy mode). |
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June 25, 2009, 01:46 PM
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#12 (permalink) | |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
I could go on and on about my theory on nerfing content and how it screws with people and servers... but I'll save it for another thread. ;)
__________________
"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." - RFK |
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June 25, 2009, 01:46 PM
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#13 (permalink) |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
that is true and perhaps blizzard is fixing it in 3.2 there are now 3 levels of tiered gear and 4 seperate instances. the hardmodes are locked until you've cleared the normal version ( 10 / 25 ) bearing in mind that also it will take a min of 5 weeks before anyone can attempt said hard modes and regular 10man might take a few months to clear normal... |
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June 25, 2009, 01:53 PM
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#14 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE |
Re: 10's vs 25's
The problem is that the content is the same. In The Burning Crusade there was no issue with Kara dropping T4 and ZA having T6-equivalent gear (including some BiS), since they were separate raid instances that you wanted to clear anyways. On the other hand this was not optimal since a) a 10 man guild could hardly jump from Kara to ZA and would only have limited access and b) it was often a problem to form 2 or 3 good ZA groups from a 25 man raiding force, you had to leave out people or use alts and stuff... Now if you get twice the same content, just one for 10 man and one for 25 man, so maybe you don't want to clear both every week (or all 4 of them, oh my god!). If they drop the same loot, I think after a while many 25 man guilds would have problems filling their raids. Btw, they could have made a 40 player version of the colliseum too  I've never raided in vanilla wow, I imagine it fun (but I guess also frustrating quite often... another 15 people more who can stand in fire...) Quote:
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June 25, 2009, 01:58 PM
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#15 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Gwilly 80 Orc Warlock crushridge US PvP Guild: Judge Jury Executioner Profile: RPG Outfitters Talent Spec: 53/1/17 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
I don't see a problem at all. I am fortunate enough to be in a guild that prefers to raid the 25 man content. I like the better gear. I like it when we down new bosses. Doing it in a 25 man raid has given me more enjoyment, more of a sense of accomplishment than doing it in a 10 man version. I even quit the guild I am presently in to go back to another smaller guild who focussed on 10 man content. Nahhh, didn't feel right to me, and I was luckily welcomed back into my present guild. It all makes sense to me - the gear is appropriate for the complication of 25 man raiding. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:02 PM
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#16 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
My point is less on what 'is' than what 'should be'. I don't really see any reason other than history - as Honeyfitz pointed out - why 25's should be designed to be harder or more rewarding than 10's. I suppose what this comes down to ultimately is : why have 25's at all? I can think of a few good reasons : more variety in the way encounters play, chance to meet more people, experience more character mechanics, learn new strategies... However, can't think of any reason why 25's should be the benchmark of difficulty/reward. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:26 PM
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#17 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Phìl 80 Gnome Warlock Zenedar Euro PvP Guild: Custodi del Sigillo Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
As someone pointed out, 25-men drop better gear because otherwise there would be no point running them instead of 10-men, simple as that In 10s it's easier to set up a group, easier to pick up skilled players or just the ones you like the most, easier to walk out of the raid with new shiny items (less competitors FTW). On the other hand, getting 25 people to show up at the same time can be a pain, getting 25 skilled people together can be close to impossible (so setup is usually like 15-20 dedicated raiders + 5-10 casuals) and looting something can be difficult if you have bad luck or a bad DKP system. Just think about Ulduar, would you bother running the 25 if it didn't drop better loot? I probably wouldn't  (ofc i'm talking about 25 and 10 versions of the SAME instance, otherwise is a totally different story) |
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June 25, 2009, 02:40 PM
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#18 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Hike 80 Undead Warlock Blackwing Lair US PvP Guild: Occam's Raiders Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
well... i gotta clarify something before i make a comment about the 10/25 man thing. i love 10 mans. i love the format, i love not having a billion people yelling on vent, i love that it's easier to manage and you can accomplish the same task which a variety of raid compositions. the only reason i enjoy 25 man raids is for the gear. it's not that i hate the raid itself, it just fails compared to 10 mans. having said that i disagree with the argument that i should be able to obtain equal gear in 10 and 25 man raids. the only reason for my opinion is simply based on the nature of WoW. it's a MMORPG.... if you're going to use the phrase "massive multiplayer" then i don't think there should be handsome rewards for pulling together a couple of folks to knock out the content. it should take a massive number of people, and those that are able to manage it should be rewarded for it. it's not that i'll be happy with 2nd-best gear, but when i play this game i'm not solely focused on the gear. if i was, i'd run raids with as many people as needed to obtain gear, regardless of the fun factor. i think if people like myself are making decisions to stick with friends and run in smaller groups, that it should come at a bit of a sacrifice. i know it sounds harsh, but it's just a matter of prioritizing. |
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June 25, 2009, 02:50 PM
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#19 (permalink) |
Status: Darkbinder
Character Info
Aily 80 Human Warlock Doomhammer US PvE Guild: Arisen Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/1/17 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
So here's what I'm seeing 10 - easier to get together, less flexibility in the classes/fights/deaths (in appropriate gear) 25 - harder to get together, more flexibility in classes/fights/deaths If scaled to be just as challenging in both forms they come out pretty even really. The people in big guilds or who just like to do 25s will still do them. Didn't everyone think no one would do 10s because 25 has better gear? |
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June 25, 2009, 02:57 PM
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#20 (permalink) | ||
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
I'm totally with you in finding 25's to be more of a task than a pleasure. You're either one of the crowd (annoying when you're referred to as 'the lock' on vent) or your herding cats (when you lead pugs). Either way, not really fun. Rather than rewarding the ability to gather enough competent tanks/healers and a bunch of 'good enough' dps, why not make better gear exclusive to hard modes or tricky encounters? Unless WoW is training us for middle level management positions in large firms, don't see why good gear = bigger groups. Quote:
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