| Instances & Raiding The PvE side to 80... everything relating to instances and raiding. From Wailing Caverns to Uldaar and beyond! |
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June 25, 2009, 05:14 PM
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#21 (permalink) |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
I think they should have a middle ground. I think they should have all bosses except the final of whatever raid you want to talk about drop the same loot. The final boss should be the only difference so there is still that little difference for raiders of 25's vs 10. Say the 8.5 chest drops from 25 and 8 from 10. If you pick an important enough piece it will keep the distinction without hurting 10 man raiding guilds as much. Make it two pieces if that's not enough. Another idea would be to change the loot drop chances to 25 man raid: 75% t8.5; 25% t8 10 man raid: 25% t8.5; 75% t8 or the equivalent. Last edited by Carnall; June 25, 2009 at 05:16 PM.. |
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June 25, 2009, 06:28 PM
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#22 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kiralyn 80 Human Warlock Mal'Ganis US PvP Guild: Self Titled Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0.13.58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
There are some important things that need to be taken into consideration for all of this. First, Naxx in Wrath is not a good indicator of ANYTHING. It was meant as the entry-level raid instance that The Burning Crusade didn't have. It was supposed to be the easy gear-up instance. And it was! Now because it's mechanically simple, zerging it with 25 leaves more room for error than zerging it with 10. Put better loot in 25, and 10-man Naxx dies. This is what was observed, and what was corrected moving into Uld. Second, no matter what any of us say or hope or wish, the majority is driven by reward, and that reward is gear. People are going to go where they can get the best gear for the least work. Hence people pugging 25-Naxx over 10. This is why you see people trying to get just enough arena rating for that next upgrade. If you make the rewards the same, then players WILL take the path of least resistance to getting the best rewards, and 25-man raiding will die. Third, designing for 10 limits what developers can assume about a raid, and thereby what they can do. If you operate under these limitations, than groups that stack a perfect raid (all caster DPS with an ele shaman and a moonkin) will overcome them much more easily. Again, path of least resistance. You have to design for the majority, but the minority will find the content far too easy. The problem with initial content in Wrath was that completing the 10-man content required 25-man gear. You could never hope to do Sarth +3 or six-minute Maly with only the gear afforded to you in 10-man instances. The progression path was broken in that regard. What should happen is that people make a choice between 10 and 25-man raids based on a preference. If you don't want to deal with the organization behind 25-man raiding, you go with 10, and there is a progression path there for you, through regular and hard modes, and into achievements. The gear suits the content and allows you to complete it. If you are willing to go the extra step and run 25s, there are better rewards, and the highest progression in the game. The problem is that people instinctively rate their accomplishments against others. If joey has 3k spell power and I only have 2.75k, he's better than me. In reality, he made a different choice in what he wanted to invest in the game. If you are happy in 10s and he is happy in 25s, then who cares if his numbers are a little higher? The best thing for the community as a whole is the current system. The designers get to design for a raid with all the necessary buffs and come up with new and exciting things for us to kill. They then can tweak that down to a small group comp and allow more people access to it. People are rewarded for making the effort to run content that is more of a challenge to organize, but everyone has a clear path of progression. I'm not sure what else you can ask for that wouldn't break the system.
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Hell, it's about time. -Tychus Findlaw |
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June 25, 2009, 07:53 PM
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#23 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Illania 80 Blood Elf Warlock Silver Hand US RP PvE Guild: Death in Seconds Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
I'm seeing "if they have the same loot, 25 will die". And...this is a bad thing? If people prefer 10 man, and only go to 25 because of the gear...25 should die. That's a clear indicator that the majority prefers the 10 man environment, whether because it's easier, more intimate, less complicated to organize, or whatever. I'm not saying to stop making 25s, mind you...they can keep making them, and if people do keep going (which I'd expect) even with equal gear, great. But if not...give the people what they want, yeah? |
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June 26, 2009, 07:21 AM
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#24 (permalink) |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
Othe than Sarth 3D I don't think I've seen a fight where the 10 man version was harder than the 25. Even 4HM 10 man was easy, just a pally and me at the back and the rest zerging the front 2 and moving every so often. On 25 we had to think a lot more and found healing the back group a lot harder. The margins for error in 10s may be smaller but things like boss HP and the damage caused by abilities are proportionately lower and therefore easier to deal with. And hard modes on 10 just don't comapre to 25. In fact you can stack 10 man raids to make them even easier. My old guild went down to do 10 mans exclusively and virtually all their DPS is melee. So they have pretty much every melee DPS buff covered and can therefore do 25 man level DPS in a 10 man raid. You could do the same with casters though you'd probably run into trouble when you needed to OT something which plate-wearing melee DPS can do adequately in 10 man. And let me flip the gear question around: if all you 10 man raid lovers are fine and happy with sticking to 10 man raids why do you need the gear to be equal to 25 man drops? The gear that drops in 10s is more than adequate to do the job at that level and if you are enjoying the raids and still getting new gear then I don't see the problem. I can only think the ego is dented when you see a T8.5 geared equivalent wandering around Dalaran. Seriously, if you're happy in 10 man raids and are making upgrades just enjoy it, don't worry about what gear other people have who are in guilds that are on a completely different progression track to you, namely 25 mans. |
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June 26, 2009, 11:37 PM
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#25 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Illania 80 Blood Elf Warlock Silver Hand US RP PvE Guild: Death in Seconds Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
I, personally, am fine with the 10 man gear. However, my guild has had people leave not because they want to be in another guild, but because they want 25 man gear. They've told us they'd rather raid with us but can't because we do 10 and they want 25 gear. So while 10 man gear is fine as far as I'm concerned, I don't like having groups torn apart because other people want the better gear and they can only get it in 25. |
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June 27, 2009, 01:54 AM
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#26 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
Kiralyn made the argument that designing for 10's is limiting vs what can be done for 25's. This may be so - still, given that it's possible to make challenging and interesting encounters in 5 man instances, I wouldn't think that 10's are so much more limiting. Especially now that there's so many shared class abilities and dual speccing. It may be easier to create a challenge simply by buffing a bosses HP and damage, thowing in a few extra adds, but where's the creativity in that? Why not create raid content that encourages you to swap specs (fights that need 3 healers, 1 tank... all dps, no heals... etc) or content that throws in large groups of npcs (Hodir plus)... there are many ways to add complexity and variety to an encounter. A better system would reward 10's & 25's equally (probably with more drops on the 25's - which would give a bit more incentive to run them) and provide 10's and 25's that were equally challenging. The problem with making 25's the benchmark for better gear isn't that it's too hard or requires too much organization, it's that it passively penalizes more intimate, smaller guilds. Last edited by fizboz; June 27, 2009 at 01:59 AM.. |
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June 27, 2009, 10:43 AM
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#27 (permalink) | |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
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From my experience, most high end raiders enjoy 10 man raiding more. The reasons are fairly simple; - The quality of the raids is higher. - There is less babysitting - Which is great for raid leaders - There is less down time - There is less recruiting needed - There is less furstration in general. - Slackers are spotted instantly, so players are prone to perform better. I'm GM of a modest raiding guild. We raid 3 days a week and cleared everything in BC and Wrath within those 3 days - I have to mention that Sunwell was hell, Wrath brought fun back to the raiding scene. What my core-members and I would like, is for 25 man raids to be completely removed. Maybe implement 15 man raids, or heck, leave 5 and 10 man raids only. Back in BC we enjoyed ZA more than anything else. Amani Warbear runs were great fun! The only reason we do the 25 man raids, is because the loot is significantly better. We clear everything, including a few hardmodes in 1 evening and spend the other 2 game days having fun in Ulduar 10. Not only would the game's quality increase by removing 25 man raid content, but more guilds would be competing for that rank 1 position. |
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July 02, 2009, 05:39 AM
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#28 (permalink) |
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Re: 10's vs 25's
Again, I'm still not seeing an answer to the question "if you are happy doing 10 man raids and are making progress and upgrades, why do you need the gear to be equal to 25 man drops?" Just enjoy the game on your own terms. My previous guild are tearing up the 10 man raid scene on my server and they're happy with that, they like all the advantages of 10 man raiding that soprano lists. Honestly, if 25 man raids are so disappointing then don't do them! If people are leaving because they are loot whores and want 25 man drops then you're better off without them. I just find it so bizarre that anyone would take an "all or nothing" position like "remove 25 man raids". Many guilds still like the challenge of 25 man raiding even if it does drive you to frustration at times so let us have our fun and you have yours. In truth, I think that if 25 mans were removed then WoW would slowly die. WoW's success has been down to it's vibrant raiding scene and that's where other MMOs have consistently failed. And part of the success of WoW raiding is the epic feeling of large-scale battles which 10 man doesn't have and, for me, will never have. Scale is definitely a factor in MMOs that seek to draw you into a world and keep you there. And on a purely practical level, 10 man raids are tuned to 10 man gear levels (in fact I think they are under-tuned a bit) and 25 man raids are tuned to need 25 man gear. I understand a bit of the argument about 25 man guilds dropping into 10 man instances and being at an advantage but in truth most 25 man guilds I know of just don't have the time to follow 2 progression paths. However, I do think Blizzard could make 10 and 25 man progression almost entirely seperate by implementing a shared lockout for the 10 and 25 man versions of instances - if you raid 25 man this week then you are locked out of the 10 man. Though that's a solution to those who are genuinely interested in seeing 10 man raid progression as something seperate and not just a pathway to easy upgrades. |
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July 02, 2009, 09:19 AM
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#29 (permalink) | ||
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Re: 10's vs 25's
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Quote:
There are no answers really to the upgrade path issue, and the solution they have to separate the paths is one of risk vs reward. And by risk I mean those raiders who insist on standing in the fire. I do get the impression sometimes that players who do 10 man raids are seen as something of a second class citizen, but without phasing the two group-types and disallowing their interaction, I think that's inevitable. The shared lockout is a good solution, the result would be to draw a much stronger line between them, and at that stage, you could even start talking about narrowing the gap in gear difference, while adding in a separate lockout for heroic-modes (as they're doing now), but then you get in to a discussion on if 25 should exist at all ... again ... To close, you shouldn't need equal gear if the paths are sufficiently separated - 13 ilevel points should be sufficient to deter those who don't want to bother with 25s, while giving those who do want to bother enough of an incentive. Except the paths from T7 -> T8 currently have a fair whack of overlap, in both directions. Interesting times to play in. |
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July 02, 2009, 12:40 PM
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#30 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Lephlock 80 Blood Elf Warlock Earthen Ring US RP Guild: Team Awesome Talent Spec: 0/55/16 |
Re: 10's vs 25's
Quote:
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http://elitistjerks.com/f80/t48311-simulationcraft_post_3_1_specs/ Lephlock 80 Demonology Warlock <TEAM AWESOME> - Earthen Ring US |
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