| Instances & Raiding The PvE side to 80... everything relating to instances and raiding. From Wailing Caverns to Uldaar and beyond! |
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October 21, 2009, 01:25 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Raid frustration
Sorry, I have to vent a little bit, but also any advice would be greatly appreciated. My guild is tiny and have recently started doing 10 mans. We have gotten up to Thorim/IC in 10 Ulduar but not beaten them yet. I am guild leader and I have appointed two raid leaders who have run everything with their old guild to help newer people and direct traffic. We always preface every run with what we want to accomplish and even provide the links for corresponding tankspot videos that need to be watched. The majority of us have gear that is i219-226 with a few pieces that are either 245 or 200 so gear isn't an issue. The problem is that we can't seem to clear anything that takes any coordination. Our dps on a tank and spank fight is great but when it comes to moving out of fire or killing snowbolds we can't do anything right it seems. A few days ago we went to try to do OS+3D; epic fail. If the tank didn't die in the first 20 sec then we couldn't get the first drake down in time or people were just getting hit by flame walls. Of course our healer (and one of the two raid leaders) blames DPS for not being good enough, which admittedly was rather weak on that fight. We try to do 2D and fail, we try to do 1d and fail so we just do 0D after half an hour of wiping. Last night we tried ToC 10 which looking at our gear is what we should be doing. We wiped 3 times on gormok the impaler, then after melee figured out that they needed to help with snowbolds we would get through him easily. Of course then we would wipe on Acidmaw's venom every single time until everyone just got fed up and it got late. So I'm not sure if the people in my guild are just bad or we need better direction or what. Is there a certain makeup that we should be aiming for? I'm really only looking to do TOC tbh so if there are certain classes that we need for this encounter I'd be grateful for the input. Current composition is: Destro Lock Arcane Mage Prot Warrior Bear Tree Resto Pally Deeps Warrior Deeps Pally Hunter (I think survival) and sometimes a holy priest. We usually see who is on for that last spot. We have a few people who sub for others too if they are available unholy tank dk prot/fury warrior hunter. Any help is greatly appreciated. I'm sure some people will say well what do you want help with and I would have to reply... everything. How do I stop us from wiping so often or is this just part of the experience? |
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October 21, 2009, 01:47 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE |
Re: Raid frustration
How do you communicate? Any form of voice chat? It really helps with explaining tactics and also calling out important events (FIRE!!!). Do you use a forum to communicate outside the game? Choose your raids carefully. ToC 10 should be doable, as is Ulduar 10. But maybe you should focus on one target, and not go to a different place every night. If you have doubts about certain members, it would maybe help to go back to Naxx 10 or VoA 10. Are people able to pull some minimum dps (say 3-4k) on tank and spank fights? Do they move out of fire fast enough? Do they switch dps targets when being told to? Maybe Koralon and Emalon are perfect encounters to check this, and people should be familiar enough with them. |
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October 21, 2009, 01:47 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Ravehne 80 Undead Warlock Emerald Dream US RP PvP Guild: Défiant Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Raid frustration
It seems to me the biggest thing is that people dont know the fights well. Just telling people to go watch videos wont work. You need to explain every encounter beforehand and call out things during the fight. I and probably several people in your guild dont understand the fight all that well from watching videos and prefer to get it explained and then try it out right afterward. Progression is tough and you guys will wipe a bit, but keep at it and the fights will be learned. |
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October 21, 2009, 01:50 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Character Info
unpoloart 80 Undead Warlock Firetree US PvP Guild: LOS RUDOS Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/13/55 |
Re: Raid frustration
Hey How much dps you all have? You need to understand the fights, not only the raid leader, but the raid leader needs to understand every single aspect of each fight. if you fail in the "move out" thing, check if your members have the video settings to see the circles or anything. Learning is part of raiding, if you are new to raiding ( i mean when you didint raid before wrath), the you need to practice and everyone needs to learn the importance of dps all out only when needed, I am from a 10man raiding guild, but we did raid in bc, and the new members had to catch up, and it was not easy for them. If your memebrs sdee the circles or marks and still dont "move out of ..." Then talk to them and tell them the importance of that, because if they cant do , you need new members, sorry :( |
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October 21, 2009, 02:06 PM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Tremloc 80 Human Warlock Stormrage US PvE Guild: Iliad Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Raid frustration
deadly boss mods should be a requirement. Also, less talky more killy is better. A wipe should generally consist of this: who ****ed up? fix it buffs go you don't need a 20 minute conversation between wipes about why things went wrong and what strat should you use and whatnot. it's also helpful to direct instruction at people. typically if you're just talking about general strat peoples eyes glaze over and they don't pay attention until the fight actually starts. Calling people out specifically makes their ears perk up. - mr warlock, you need to do X during phase 1, Y during phase 2, and Z during phase 3. Also it's important to have vent and have somone who understands the fight to talk through it, especially when a fight is new or a guild doesn't have good coordination or understanding of fight mechanics. Tell people specifically what they need to do. So gormok snobold would go "snobold on X, dps switch". Tanks themselves typically coordinate the passing of gormok. |
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October 21, 2009, 03:03 PM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Re: Raid frustration
I guess I left a few things out... We do have vent and it is required that we are all in it to raid. We all have dbm too, again a requirement to raid. We go over fights before too even going as far as to simulate the fight before hand. (we run through movements and point exactly where the tanks/dps need to go beforehand, and mark with flares if needed) We just did naxx 10 to help gear up a lower geared new guildie and we were all pulling 3.7k up to my 4.3k on tank and spank (like patchwerk). My frustration is due to that to my knowledge those of us leading the raid are doing everything possible but we still have issues with runs and we shouldn't be. Not standing in snowbold fire isn't a hard concept to grasp. It's not an issue with raid comp though? I was concerned with that at first, I know I get almost zero raid buffs from this group. I'm guessing this is just part of the "fun" of progression raiding. I'm thinking I should have pugged into a few runs beforehand rather than waiting for the rest of the guild to catch up. I was toying with trying to run Ony 10 this Friday too because I hear it's an easy run but I don't know that we could pull it off. Oh as for sticking to one raid at a time... We kind of switched for a change of scenery and because I'm not so sure we can really use too much loot from Uld 10. We were doing it more to learn than for anything. Any other advice? Oh the raid leaders are actually our main tank and raid heals. I'll usually try to lead the ranged... all 3 of us. They take care of healing assignments and tanking strats typically. I'm not entirely sure where the fault lies to be honest. Last edited by Carnall; October 21, 2009 at 03:06 PM.. |
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October 21, 2009, 03:32 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Bahnek 80 Gnome Warlock Windrunner US PvE Guild: Lords of Karma Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/0/18 |
Re: Raid frustration
I have no idea what the age/maturity level of the folks you run with but.... Along with Proper Gear Levels... Patience and Focus are the keys. All boss fights are dances... that take time for everyone to get the hang of. Some people seem to learn the steps quicker than others... but eventually all will understand enough for your team to be successful. Then you get to move on and learn the next dance. I've always found the key is to keep it simple. To many raid leaders tend to over complicate their explanations... and that's when people zone out. Most of the raid doesn't need to know everything... they just need the basics. I put Team in bold above... 'cause that is what you have to become. That takes time. Time for everyone to not only get comfortable with each other, but to trust in each other. In order for each individual to perform to their maximum efficiency... they have to know, without a doubt, that they can trust everyone else on the team to be executing to the best of their abilities and gear. I'm willing to die 100 times on a fight with a Team of players that are willing to listen, learn, adapt, attempt different strategies, and begin to gel together as a cohesive unit. That is just going to be a huge advantage down the road as you explore new content. |
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October 21, 2009, 03:32 PM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Tremloc 80 Human Warlock Stormrage US PvE Guild: Iliad Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Raid frustration
if you're having problems with gormok and snobolds (a rather simple mechanic) then I would avoid ony. between proper positioning, whelps, adds, tail swipes, deep breaths, etc. if your group can't stand out of simple fire, you're going to have issues with harder fight mechs. Is it always the same people screwing up or is it distributed throughout the raid? If it's distributed then you'll just need to do the fight as much as possible so people learn, if it's a select few then i'd recommend putting a system in place where if they continuously wipe the raid they get benched. As raid leader you may have to continually remind people not to stand in fire even while the fire is out....i know it sucks. |
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October 21, 2009, 03:59 PM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Re: Raid frustration
Well to add to it, I'm not really the raid leader, I'm the guild manager/leader. I have two raid leaders who should be taking care of this for me. I didn't know if they were maybe not doing things properly in handling the raid, even though I thought they were doing everything in their power. Unfortunately/fortunately we can't really bench anyone because we don't have the people in guild to replace them. Suddenly we have a plethora of tanks (2 warrior, 2dk, and a bear) and a few extra melee dps, but almost no ranged dps or heals. I have been trying to recruit heals though. Not a ton of healers around unfortunately. Maybe I need to get my healing shammy up to 80... =( but that means no more lock. I guess this is just how it is supposed to go then. We will keep grinding. I just assumed that if I can do it then everyone else should be able to do it. Oh, and I think I agree with Ony not working. I'll just try to pug it with a few people I know outside guild. Thank you all for the feedback! Feel free to keep the advice flowing. |
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October 21, 2009, 04:15 PM
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#10 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Darklawdog 80 Gnome Warlock Medivh US PvE Guild: Imperìum Profile: ArmoryLite Talent Spec: dualspec |
Re: Raid frustration
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