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| Instances & Raiding The PvE side to 80... everything relating to instances and raiding. From Wailing Caverns to Uldaar and beyond! |
| View Poll Results: Which do you prefer, 10 or 25 man raids? | |||
| I prefer 10 man raids |
   
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75 | 52.08% |
| I prefer 25 man raids |
  
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31 | 21.53% |
| I don't prefer one over the other, I like both |
  
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33 | 22.92% |
| I don't like either, give me the 40 man raids from vanilla |
  
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5 | 3.47% |
| Voters: 144. You may not vote on this poll | |||
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November 18, 2009, 06:53 PM
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#41 (permalink) |
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Character Info
lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
Hmm... I don't really know if it is possible to extract something useful from this data. Here is one example what one could derive from this, which is probably a totally silly result: For the first four bosses in ten man raids, the success rate for the heroic mode is almost half of the success rate for normal mode (more precicely it's about 40%). For 25 man raids the success rate is one third to one tenth of normal mode. Conclusion: Ten man heroic is twice as hard as ten man normal, while 25 man heroic is up to ten times harder than 25 man normal. Anub is different, here one could say that 10 man anub heroic is ten times harder than the normal version, while 25 man anub heroic is 30 times harder than normal. Anyways, a boss being "twice as hard" is a totally useless measure, as useless as the "conclusions" I draw above. Also I think there is no point in comparing difficulties for the normal mode raids. Both are quite easy. Heroic modes are hard and challenging for both 10 and 25 man, as long as you don't overgear the content, and clearing them is a nice achievement. I would assume that a large part of the higher success rates on 10 man heroic is due to people clearing it with 25 man gear, and probably has not so much to do with the individual difficultly of the encounters. TL,DR: The statistics are interesting, but I don't think they say a lot about the difficulty of the encounters or of 10 vs 25. |
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November 19, 2009, 06:39 AM
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#42 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Jenerena 80 Blood Elf Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Deliverance Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
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November 19, 2009, 07:11 AM
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#43 (permalink) |
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Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
It's hard to be definitive on this. Using my own server as an example, ToGC 10 was cleared by the top guild on the server 3 days after it's release, it was then cleared by a raft of other guilds the following week when the Anub tactics became clearer (most were still trying to kill it in 2 submerges rather than one in that first week). By that time I would guess that most of that guild had one-two pieces of 245 gear. Now, the best guilds on our server are fully decked out in i245 gear and a few pieces of i258 gear and still our server does not have a full clear of ToGC 25. It's anecdotal I'll concede but it's a story I've heard a few times. Most of the "world first" guilds have said that nothing in ToGC10 or even ToGC25 fully prepares you for Anub 25. I'll also add that the top guild I referred to that hasn't killed Anub 25 has cleared ToGC 10 in level-appropriate gear, this I know because many of them are swanning around with the Argent Defender title. From my own point of view, we went to heroic 10 on the second week of release and cleared the first 4 encounters with ease, including one-shots of Champs and Twins. But in 25 heroic, jeez, the demands are amazing especially on tank healers. We basically can't afford to lose a single DPS on heroic beasts if we want to meet the enrage timer in 25s. On topic, I prefer 25s for the challenge. They are the generall accepted yardstick of raiding and that's what I love. I get a sense of achievement from 25s that I don't from 10s and it's nothing to do with loot. I think it's about getting that many people to perform in synch. And there's just something a bit mroe epic about 25 people fighting a boss rather than 10. I do 10 heroic for a bit of fun, usually on a friday when I can get drunk and not have to worry about what's going on but I don't see it as a challenge in any way - luckily our OT is teetotal or it might be a bit less fun on Anub! Overall, it's your game, and if you get what you want out of 10s then great, the game caters to you very well right now. Again this is a single server POV, but the 10 man game isn't holding guilds together on my server. The many dedicated 10 man guilds that sprung up last November have slowly died off as most of that content became puggable quickly. I think if Blizzard hope to maintain the social aspect in 10s then they need to give people more of a reason to join a guild and stay in it. For me that means making the 10 man heroic encounters too difficult to pug, much like the 25 heroic encounters are. |
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November 19, 2009, 08:15 AM
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#44 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Jenerena 80 Blood Elf Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Deliverance Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
I think there are only really two or three serious strict 10man guilds on our server. There are many more, but most have them have hardly had much progress and mainly consider themselves as 'casual guilds'. There is an alliance guild who have done pretty much every achievement you could get for 10man (first in the world) followed by us around 200 achievement points behind (taken from guildox, we are 22nd in the world). There is around 10 progress points between us and the one below however. There are many many 25man guilds of course. It's very easy for 10man guilds not to work out because many 10man guilds work in the way that they gear up those who need it in 10mans, with no real raiding 'core team' as such, and act a little more casual. My guild used to do this, gearing up people who then went on to join 25man guilds. We tried doing 25man raids back The Burning Crusade with another 10man guild who we didn't get on with. It was not until we decided on a set core raiding team give or take one or two people who we took to raids every single raid night which is why we have progressed so far strictly 10man. It's easy to use 10man as a fun and casual thing or to gear people up. The gear requirements aren't as high of course not, but for a guild to make the decision to only raid 10man content and treat it as seriously as the many serious 25man guilds out there is honestly pretty rare to find. Last edited by Jenren22; November 19, 2009 at 08:20 AM.. |
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November 19, 2009, 09:07 AM
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#45 (permalink) |
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Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
True, I can think of only 2 on my server, one alliance one horde, that stick to 10s and take it seriously - by which I mean going for the hard modes and big achievements. Sadly, no 10 man guild on the server reached Algalon before 3.2 dropped but a few of the 25 man guilds who overgeared the encounter dropped into 10s to pick up the Starcaller title. I'd really like to see a 10 man-only guild on the bleeding edge of progression in that content. I think that would increase the credibility of 10s because atm, most server firsts/world firsts in 10s are completed by 25 man guilds on one of their off nights. I would honestly favour a shared lockout for 10s and 25s so you have to choose your progress path and stick to it, at least for that week. Raided 25 man this week? No 10 man for you! |
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November 19, 2009, 09:42 AM
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#46 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
There is a general lack of 'hardcore' 10 guilds on Dunemaul too. I think that a big part of that is the 'gear issue'. If you're really hardcore, you're probably in it for the BiS gear and the other rewards (titles, mounts, etc.) 10 mans have good gear for their environment, but it generally lacks the prestige because it's never going to be BiS. Sadly, although I prefer 10's for the experience, I don't think 10 man hardcore is ever going to be more than an exception and that a lot of people who would get into an exclusive elite 10 man guild would feel strong temptations to leave for the better 25's. |
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November 19, 2009, 09:53 AM
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#47 (permalink) | ||
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Character Info
Jenerena 80 Blood Elf Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Deliverance Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
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I think Blizzard are taking notice now, Guildox has for a start hence why we are getting so much more now than we did when all we had was Kara. I'm looking forward to seeing how they structure it in the coming expansion and beyond. Quote:
I don't have any intention of joining an elite 25man guild. As i say, now 10man heroic gear is considered good anyway, anything with 'heroic' written on it generally. Before if you had 10 man gear, you felt inferior to 25man geared people. The gap between 25man geared locks and 10man geared locks is alot lower now, so the gear differences are thus getting lower. So i feel my gear is at a very high standard generally, despite it being 10man gear. Yes i am talking about gear here, but my point is most people on this thread say they prefer 10man but are not necessarily part of a 10man strict serious guild, since like we say, they are rare. So is everyone who said '10man' part of a 25man guild doing the odd 10mans for fun? or are you part of a serious 10man guild? or a casual guild? There is a difference there. |
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November 19, 2009, 10:16 AM
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#48 (permalink) |
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Character Info
lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
Putting 10's and 25's on a shared lockout seems like a nice idea to me. It's a fact that most 25 man guilds use 10 man raids to earn their members more emblems and more "intermediate" gear upgrades, i.e. it's not only that 25 man gear is used to progress in 10 man raids, also 10 man gear is to some extent used to progress faster through 25 man raids. Also using 10 man's to learn fights for 25 raiders would drop out then. |
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November 19, 2009, 11:44 AM
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#49 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Raven 80 Undead Warlock Emerald Dream US RP PvP Guild: Hit It Like You Mean It Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
As part of one of those rare 10man progression guilds I can honestly say that the hardest part of such a guild is keeping members. We lose members to other guilds often because eventually they want more progression in 25 content. So, even if our guild wanted to do 25man content at some point in the future, we never have more than 15 raiding members at any one time. The most annoying part of being in such a guild is being looked down upon by the 25 "leet" players who outgear the content we do by a long shot. They look at our guild struggling to do togc twins and say they clear it in less than a hour. Sure, many of our members do what they can to get the best gear, such as pugging 25mans and crafting the patterns gear, but all in all we stay rather close to the intended gear lvls of the content. I GREATLY support the idea of shared lockouts, although the 25 guilds doing world firsts could still easily happen. All they have to do is decide to do the 10mans one week just to nab those achievements. 
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November 19, 2009, 03:01 PM
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#50 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Jenerena 80 Blood Elf Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Deliverance Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Poll: Do you prefer 10 or 25 man raiding?
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