| Individual Talent Discussions In-depth discussion, information and analysis on a talent by talent basis. Please read the "About this section" thread before replying to any threads. |
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September 29, 2006, 11:05 AM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Zarrius 60 Human Warlock Hellscream US PvE |
Shadow and Flame versus Shadow Mastery calculations
*** Please note the dates on the posts in this thread - see the end pages for most recent information. *** So I was contemplating the BC Talent trees and wondered to myself what value the Shadow and Flame talent really gave versus say Shadow Mastery when casting Shadow Bolts. So here's the formula I used: SM : (A + B) + ((A + B) * .1) = C S&F : A + D = E A = Average Shadowbolt Damage B = Bonus Spell Damage * .85 (From SM) C = Average Shadowbolt Damage with Shadow Mastery D = Bonus Spell Damage * 1.05 (From S&F) E = Average Shadowbolt Damage with Shadow and Flame Using this formula it appears that +450 Spell Damage is the point at which S&F starts to pull ahead of SM when casting Shadowbolts. I used Shadowbolt Rank 9 which is readily available. +250 Spell Damage 481 + 212.5 = 693.5 * .1 = 762.85 481 + 262.5 = 743.5 +375 Spell Damage 481 + 318.75 = 799.75 * .1 = 879.725 481 + 393.75 = 874.75 +400 Spell Damage 481 + 340 = 821 * .1 = 903.1 481 + 420 = 901 +450 Spell Damage 481 + 382.5 = 863.5 * .1 = 949.85 481 + 472.5 = 953.5 +500 Spell Damage 481 + 425 = 906 * .1 = 996.6 481 + 525 = 1006 +750 Spell Damage 481 + 637.5 = 1118.5 * .1 = 1230.35 481 + 787.5 = 1268.5 +1000 Spell Damage 481 + 850 = 1331 * .1 = 1464.1 481 + 1050 = 1531 Does this look right or am I thinking about it all wrong?
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-Zarrius of Hellscream (Alliance) |
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September 29, 2006, 12:10 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Soni 80 Human Warlock Frostwolf US PvP Guild: Second Generation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: Shadow and Flame versus Shadow Mastery calculations
Looks about right, except Shadow and Flame is now +20% of your bonus spell damage. Also, Shadowbolt only gets 86% of bonus damage. Edit: Oh, I see what you did there. Looks about right. Not sure about how S&F will be added though. It could just negate the casting time penalty (-15% + 20% = +5% of bonus damage) or it could go into account before or after the casting time penalty (1.20 * 0.85 = 1.02 = +2% of bonus damage)
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Warlocks - We go through Hell so you don't have to. Last edited by Soni; September 29, 2006 at 12:17 PM.. |
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October 20, 2006, 06:34 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Umbrix 70 Undead Warlock Blackwing Lair US PvP Guild: Death Sentence Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/21 |
Re: Shadow and Flame versus Shadow Mastery calculations
Glad to see that S&F is better than Shadow Mastery in the long run. I'm trying a Destruction-Shadow based Spec for my UD in The Burning Crusade. I was wondering if i was missing out without Shadow Mastery or not, and with this, i can see that the difference is minor at first, and the talent is better later on.
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...i'll think of it... |
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October 21, 2006, 01:03 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
Character Info
Evilhacker 70 Undead Warlock Mal'Ganis US PvP Guild: Grog Addicts Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/0/0 |
Re: Shadow and Flame versus Shadow Mastery calculations
The thing is, you can't discount rank 10 (available now) and rank 11 (level 69) Shadow bolts when looking at a Burning Crusade talent tree. With a 572 base hit, a rank 11 shadow bolt would require a fair bit more damage to hit equivalency. You can also look at it the formula this way: SM Shadowbolt = (A+(B*0.87))*1.1 S&F Shadowbolt = (A+B*0.87)*1.25 [or possibly A+(B*(0.87+1.25))] In a nutshell, you'd need about 90% of base shadow bolt damage in spell damage for the two talents to equalize (depending on how S&F are applied). |
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March 06, 2007, 05:39 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Modified SM ruin or Shadow and flame?
I'm really torn between these two spec. I leveled 1-70 affliction and built up to 41/9/11 but I fell way behind in instances. I dotted everything in sight in a pull, didnt pull aggro, and still came in with 1/2 the damage of the mages (partied with both fire and frost). Grouped with a shadow priest and it was a tough fight to pull ahead of him. I respecced to 21/40 the other night and i fell in love. Partied with a frost mage in old hillsbrad and was maybe 5% below his damage, and I loved seeing the higher numbers. I play on a new server and today we went out of our way to go to silithus to get the war effort started so we could get our AQ gates open. The other lock, a friend of mine, completely blew me out of the water with his damage. He out damaged everyone there. Hes built 40/?/?. His armory page hasnt updated yet but i think hes running a modified SM ruin. Later on he told me he does roughly 530 dps. in my damage I was lucky to get 400. He suggested I head to netherstorm and test my build on Dr. Boom. I emptied my entire mana bar, no life tapping. Imp sacced, Curse of Elements> Immolate> incinerate> incinerate> incinerate> incinerate> conflag> repeat - COE. I came out with about ~500-550 dps. Same thing only Succy Sacced, Curse of Shadow> Corruption> Shadowbolt til out of mana. I came out with over 700 dps and that really got my spirits high. But I see all these people talking about the amazingness of the modified SM ruin. but alot of my damage comes from shadow and flame and having a sacrificed pet. How would my dps fare switching from, http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=NZdxczIbzZxx0tr0tGuV to somewhat like. http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=NEMr0MfkVpZ0xZgx0tM0z I'd love some input on this. The main things im doing are 5 mans. We're starting Kara this week, and I do some pvp and arena in my downtime. Here is a link to the wow armory: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#c...zgrel&n=Scayth Im not sure if that works but if not Char name: Scayth, realm Nazgrel. |
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March 06, 2007, 01:35 PM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Re: Modified SM ruin or Shadow and flame?
Scayth, I'm pretty close to the spec you're looking at; mine's DP/Ruin, with the rest in DE, imp imp, and 1 imp HS. It's not the greatest straight DPS build, but it's got a lot of utility, and works well for me right now since my time is split between finishing up quests, farming mats, grinding rep, 5 mans, and Karazhan. Damage meters aren't everything, but I've been running them pretty consistently since I'm trying to make up my mind on a spec. A good mage will beat me over the course of a 5 man, too much CC to get full benefit of dots, but I'm consistently top 3 in our Karazhan runs, and usually top on the 5 man bosses. There are better specs for just solo grinding, and better specs for raiding, and I'll definitely be respeccing later when I'm back to almost nothing but raiding, but for right now this is a pretty good all-around build. Not the top at any one thing, but pretty damn good at everything. But, I can't speak to the PvP side of the build. |
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March 06, 2007, 01:45 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Ingafel 70 Undead Warlock Dalaran US PvE Guild: Night Haven Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 37/3/21 |
Re: Modified SM ruin or Shadow and flame?
I haven't done a lot of respeccing and trying out builds since 2.0, and I haven't tried out a SnF build. But I've got the modified SM/Ruin build with iHoT linked to the left if you want to check it out. Good damage. I've been running Kara with a shadow priest in the group. It's like shadow damage heaven. When I was at about +600 damage I crit on Moroes' adds for a 4863 shadowbold. It was hot. Personally, I hate builds that rely on a sacrificed pet to get your damage. I've considered 0/40/21 or ?/?/46, but will not ever rely on a straight DS build. There's nothing worse than not being able to sacrifice your pet. In a 25-man raid there may be 2 Locks, and you'll probably be grouped with tanks, and you better learn to love your imp. Group survival > your need to make things go boom. Last edited by Ingafel; March 06, 2007 at 01:49 PM.. |
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March 06, 2007, 01:57 PM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Sspyt 60 Gnome Warlock Spinebreaker US PvP Guild: Light of Chaos Profile: CTProfile Talent Spec: 9/41/11 |
Re: Modified SM ruin or Shadow and flame?
I think one of the problems that you are facing is the affects of the dot nerfs. We really didn't see much of it at level 60, but with the increase in spell damage we are starting to feel its affects. At level 60 the best way to get lock dps was to dot everything that we could, but at 70 this no longer does more damage than single target nuking. To get my highest dps, I put whatever shadow damage dots I have (only cor if the mob will die fast) and then shadow bolt spam, and only reapply dots if they will have time to get there full effect. I recently switched to 9/41/11 and my damage actually went up in 5 man heroic mechanar. But try out that single target approach you will end up doing more damage than dotting up multiple mobs. |
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August 21, 2007, 02:57 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Hakusi 70 Undead Warlock Shadow Council US RP PvE Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Shadow Mastery versus Shadow & Flame
Which talent increases the shadow bolt coefficient damage the most: Shadow Mastery or Shadow & Flame? The way I understand it is Shadow and Flame (5/5) Shadow and Flame: Your Shadow Bolt and Incinerate spells gain an additional 20% of your bonus spell damage effects., which I translate as if you have 1000 spell damage, your shadow bolt damage would be dealing damage equal to a 1200 spell damage shadow bolt non-talented, non-crit. But I do not know how that compares to (5/5) Shadow Mastery: Increases the damage dealt or life drained by your Shadow spells by 10%. Is there a rate at which talent is better every time you gain more spell damage from obtaining new gear? Is there also a point at which both would be dealing equal damage (with same spell damage)? Note: Disregard spell hit and spell crit for shadow mastery and shadow and flame to answer the question but put into account a sacrificed succubus as a possibility Last edited by Mechanic; August 21, 2007 at 03:24 AM.. Reason: Implementing Demonic Sacrifice Option. |
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August 21, 2007, 03:12 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Moandain 70 Undead Warlock Runetotem US PvE Guild: Clan Darkpheonix Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 45/16/0 |
Re: Shadow Mastery versus Shadow & Flame
To be honest In the long run it looks like Shadow and Flame could do more. Lots of spells have Different Baseline damage, which would make different Breakpoints between the Shadow and Flame, and Shadow Mastery. I am too lazy to do the math breakdown for each spell, but Eventually 20% spell bonus will be greater than 10% Damage increase. However don't forget to take DOT's into account. Shadow and Flame does not cover any Affliction spells. So in the end just pick Shadow and Flame for Burst damage, or Pick Shadow Mastery For dots and a little boost on everything else.
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You know when I am out of manna.... I will be dead on the ground |
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| calculations, flame, mastery, modified, Ruin, Shadow, Shadow Mastery, sm, versus |
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