The Warlocks Den - WoW Warlock Discussions

Originally Posted by Pheroz on the official forums

This post isn’t so much about a problem as a design element. Overall balance whines don’t really fit either. And frankly, anyone who feels the need to mention the “sunwelling” of mages doesn’t really have much of a point. I’m not worried about my raid spot, I just see a problem

So here’s my concern:
There’s too much design overlap between mages and warlocks when looking at it from a PvE raiding perspective. And that design overlap is such that a warlock tends to eclipse a mage.
This isn’t about DPS. The stated goal of Blizz is that locks and mages bring approx equal DPS assuming all else is equal. While I don’t have the numbers to argue whether or not that goal is met, I assume it will be, or adjustments will be made in attempt of reaching that goal. Regardless, the problem, as I see it, still exists.

With the raid buff/debuff homogenization of 3.0, there are almost no unique buffs left. This is a good thing. Ideally, there would be none. If your without a shadow priest for the night, your still can get your replenishment from other classes and your spell hit debuff from a Moonkin. If your without an Enhance Shammy, you can get your attack power buff (Unleashed rage) from Abominations might or true shot aura, and use a Resto Shammy o provide totem buffs (or a frost DK for Imp Icy Talons and Horn of Winter).
No one class or spec is necessary. You can cut out a specific class and still build a raid that covers all the buffs and debuffs. The key thing is it usually takes multiple different classes/spec to cover the one that’s missing. Pulling a fury warrior out of your raid and you need a Pally to use might to replace Battle shout and a Feral to provide Leader of the pack because you don’t have rampage. Replacing a Balace Druid requires a Ret Pally for +3% haste, an Elemental Shammy for +5% spell crit, a Shadow Priest for 3% spell hit debuff, a lock of unholy dk for spell damage debuff. Lots of overlap, but no direct replacement. That’s the idea.

You can directly replace a mage with a warlock. That’s the problem.

It’s not everything a mage brings, someone else can bring – that’s fine. It’s everything a mage brings, a warlock can bring instead. That’s just bad design.
Given that mages and warlock seem fairly interchangeable already, it just builds on the problem. They are both pure magic casters that are ranged. They tend to be thought of as far more interchangeable than any of the hybrid range casters (Ele Shammies, Boomkins, Shadow Priests).
Another note, I hate when classes that fill very similar roles bring interchangeable debuffs and love when classes that fill very different roles bring them. Allow me to elaborate:
Elemental Shammies and Boomkins both bring 5% spell crit buff to a raid. Both these classes are quite similar (ranged hybrid magic caster that can throw offheals in an emergency). Direct comparisons happen between them. So this is a less desirable overlap in my view. Probably need overlap like this, but its not the ideal.

Enhance Shammies and Marksman Hunters both bring percentage attack power buff (Trueshot aura and unleashed rage). But theres a real difference between these classes, 1 is a hybrid melee dps that mixes in magic and physical damage and the other is a ranged pure physical DPSer. You don’t think of these classes in the same way at all and direct comparisons happen far less than in the other comparison. Overlaps between rogues and elemental shaman (3% crit debuff), warlocks and death knights (ebon plaguebring and CoE), Shadow Priests and Ret Pallies and Survival Hunters (replenishment) are quite cool.

So why has blizzard made all the mage overlaps with just warlocks?
Don’t have AI? Closest substitute is from a lock.
Don’t have the scorch or winters chill debuff? Locks provide that.
Hell they added new utility to mages in 3.1 (replenishment for frost mages) and gave it to Locks at the same time.

Again, I’m fine if you can replace everything a mage provides (you should be able to), but it should take more than 1 class to do it. And making it the absolute closest class in terms of comparisons and playstyles (warlocks) is kinda dumb.

Wouldn’t it be better if instead of Warlocks, Prot pallies were also putting up the 5% spell crit taken debuff, and Resto Shammies were providing excess intellect to the raid?? Or something like that? Or am I way off base?

Originally Posted by Shadoe

now where is my burst damage? I know I set it around here somewhere...