| World of Warcraft Discussion General Discussion about anything relating to World of Warcraft and the Warlock's place with in... |
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November 04, 2009, 12:22 PM
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#21 (permalink) |
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Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
I've been raid leading lately, and I'm also aware of this. I'm a DPS leading a raid but usually I let the healers sort each other out. As long as they're all happy they're assigned clearly and properly, then it works. Usually just asking them "so who's healing what?" works well enough to check it's done right ;) Most fights with adds, they aren't just a threat break but essential. The rest, well usually it's worth giving some space, shattering carefully and going for it. If the boss is above 70% I'll slow down if I'm catching the tank if it's below, I shatter than can go all out. I honestly suspect the problems in the original post are far more rotation issues. Tanks shouldn't be trying to stack any one stat. As a result they probably won't expertise cap or hit cap, but they'll be close to those. Trying to chase any one stat is a bad idea as a tank. DPS focus on output, healers balance output and sustainability, tanks balance output, effective health, and mitigation. If you take good gear, expertise and hit should at least be present. I don't however feel that trying to cap those stats is as important as just taking upgrades (your str/ap will rise so tps will as you upgrade, as well as weapon damage/ap again so you'll do more threat even if you're trying to stack survivability). And I think wow is balanced that way. I have much better gear than my paladin, narth, but I bet I could keep aggro off myself. And he's not anything capped. Or not deliberately. (i'm way over on defense, but it's a nice stat) |
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November 04, 2009, 01:13 PM
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#22 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
crewell 80 Human Warlock Sunstrider Euro PvP Guild: revenant Profile: Blizzard Armory |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
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I have a Paladin 80 tank alt and have tanked all of Nax, VoA etc and most of Ulduar, as well as ToC 10. There are very few encounters where you need to change gear TBH as the main need is stamina. I have some trinkets that I swap around which change my emphasis from stamina to avoidance ( therefore threat generation from block etc), but there have been very few encounters since Wrath of the Lich King which have needed stacked avoidance, unlike pre Wrath of the Lich King. I must say that playing DPS on my lock is stimulating and fun, but not nearly as stressful as tanking multiple mobs. As DPS, our priority is to stay alive and NOT pull aggro. I think the OP must have had a relatively new tank or have massively outgeared him. My paladin is stuck on mostly 219 items and is starting to have aggro pulled off him by my critting lock guildie. Tank stats are about balance- it would actually be pretty hard to hit cap with the gear we have and what we need to gem for. Expertise comes with lucky bits of gear drops :P On single targets, DPS is easy, if you catch up with the tank, slow down for a few seconds. You need a lot more care on multiple targets- consecrate is not that quick for aggro generation, and if there are more than 4 targets, the paladin tank needs to start rotating to get aggro on all mobs. Watch Omen- that is what it is there for- BTW- my lock is my main, I'm just trying to give a tank view Last edited by crewell; November 04, 2009 at 01:20 PM.. |
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November 04, 2009, 01:40 PM
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#23 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
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Still, having said that, Warrior tanks who are really dedicated to tanking will have both specs Prot and will have different gear/glyph sets to choose from depending on the situation. There's a pretty big difference between a 15/5/51 (good all around threat) and a 5/15/51 (better survivability, worse threat). In a Hodir type of fight where you're trying to keep threat when your dps is popping 61k crits, 5/15/51 is not the way to go. 15/5/51 with your threat gear (hit & expertise stats) is a much better way to live through the fight. If you're tanking something like Beasts, you're going to do better with 5/15/51 and your effective health gear on. Some tanks, myself included, will even have gear for trash (high shield block). Tanks don't have to do this, but better tanks will. For DPS, this means:
Last edited by fizboz; November 04, 2009 at 01:49 PM.. |
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November 05, 2009, 07:43 PM
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#24 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Elricc 80 Human Warlock Nagrand Oceania PvE Guild: The Silver Hand Talent Spec: Destro |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
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 . I went to 8/8/55 & have found that as an allround specc. I can hold threat in heroics & raids. I also have good survivability & in raids I have tanked all of naxx 10/25 & quite a number of Ulduar 10 fights generally for players with much better gear than my warrior has. I do find as an Off tank I do have rage issues & am very mindfull of rage management.
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If you ask a question that you don't want an answer to. Expect an answer you don't want to hear. |
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November 06, 2009, 01:57 AM
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#25 (permalink) |
Status: Dot, 'Lock and Drop it!
Character Info
Cormanthor 80 Human Warlock Gnomeregan US PvE Guild: Knights who say Ni Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: Various |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
__________________
Some days it just not worth chewing through the restraints |
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November 06, 2009, 01:57 AM
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#26 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Möpli 69 Gnome Warlock Tirion Euro PvE |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
I'll speak from the perspective of a bear (with kitty offspec) here. I have a complete kitty-set, a complete bear-set, and about 8 bear-trinkets which I often swap between. I also have a few pieces of bear-gear to spare für certain fights. As far as threat goes, usually I'm fine if I can Maul from the start of the fight (ie. I have enough rage) and one of my first three moves crits. The start of the fight is about the only time I have trouble with because I have a maximum of 30 rage, and if I avoid the first attacks I get almost none in. If I get a lead of 3 gcds almost no one can take a mob off me in my normal gear - I am over hitcapped, have 24 expertise, and around 50% crit. I gem stamina and agility, but agility gives me survivability via dodge and threat via crit, so I have it easy Now, there are fights which require the tank to have more than 45-50k HP. If that is the case, my first priority is to get to that number. It's irrelevant that I have 5% hit and 16 expertise, because I have to survive those blasted damage spikes. I can still pump out my maximum-threat rotation, but dps have to be a bit more carefull - two misses at the beginning will kill the mage who started out with a few lucky crits. In ToC, there are fights in which the tank is stunned but dps can go all out. Here, it's your repsonsibility to know which those fights are, and act acordingly. No one can put out their 8k tps if they're stunned for 2 seconds of every 10, no matter how good their gear. TL;DR: my first responsibility as a tank is to survive. I cannot make compromises in my gear, but I can experiment and find the best threat rotation. That is my responsibility. |
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November 06, 2009, 08:48 AM
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#27 (permalink) |
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Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
im having threat issues too. there are times when i wait 5secs before starting, getting my trinks stacked with rank 1 lifetap before hitting COD then within the first cycle im up with the tanks agro and having to slow my rotation. case in point... anub'arak in totc 10 normal. luckily around then the first add pops up and i can nuke that but depending whos tanking i can max his agro out pretty quick too and find myself swapping between anub/add before finally giving up and SSing. here is the MT i speak of WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings our other MT is WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings who is better geared and does hold agro better. however Nova will always put vigilence on the highest agroer, normally me, where Evil will tend to put it on his assigned healer. I rarely see a healer anywhere near the top of the agro list but being scottish hes quite stubborn! :-) I have had a chat with evil and he uses grid but not omen. He says that if he sees the agro warning on Grid flag up then he will put in the big agro grabs (assuming 100 rage) and reign them in. I think part of my problem is im backing off my dps when i get to equal agro as him on omen knowing that a couple of big crits could pull agro where he doesnt do his big moves til im virtually pulling agro off him. I have tried to get him to install Omen or change the agro warning settings in Grid but he seems unwilling. Im tempted just to go all out tbh Evil has laid the challenge down to pull off him maybe if i do pull off him he might install omen :-) I deffo have fewer problems in totc25 pugs i do but then i guess the tanks in there are probably far more experienced and better geared. Ade |
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November 06, 2009, 09:58 AM
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#28 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Jenerena 80 Blood Elf Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Deliverance Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
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November 06, 2009, 10:09 AM
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#29 (permalink) | ||
 
Status: Subscriber
Character Info
Dyson 80 Human Warlock Scilla US PvP Guild: Eden Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
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But to some degree you are as well in that you know your team has an aggro issue there and you could also spec destro with more reduced threat if you wanted to. Right now you are chosing a destro spec that has gimped threat reduction which is not your tanks fault. If threat is your bottleneck, your DPS will increase if you spec reduced threat regardless of what simcrafts say (as they assume no threat problems) Quote:
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November 06, 2009, 10:29 AM
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#30 (permalink) |
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Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat
This is our main Pally tank, and our main DK tank . Both are very well geared, the Pally in particular (close RL friend), who has 51K health raid buffed and absolutely amazing threat generation. He can hit 100k threat in no time and in a tank and spank situation I can go completely balls-out and never look back. He gems for strength and stamina. As a dps'er, part of your job is to recognize the gear level and potential threat generation of the tank you're playing with. If I pug some heroic daily dungeon with a relatively new tank that has -30k health and two blue trinkets, is it his fault if I pull threat and kill myself? Of course not. That said I've ended up tanking Trollgore more than once, he hits for up to about 15k on cloth which is totally doable with a good healer as long as he doesn't crit in the 15 or so seconds he's alive. 
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