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November 06, 2009, 12:00 PM	#31 (permalink)
paulisa87 Character Info Möpli 69 Gnome Warlock Tirion Euro PvE	Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat Flyingade, your case in point is a bad example, speaking as a tank. The tank get's frozen a lot, has to remember to use trinkets and survival-cds, has to move the boss into the correct position while not turning his back on him. So, the first few seconds are not comfortable. As a warlock, I usually stay way behind on the pull, so that by the time I get in range the boss is in position and the tank has had a few gdcs to build threat. Of course, if I have a hunter and/or rogue with me, there's no problem with nuking from the get-go. On the other hand, it appears that your tanks do have some problems of their own. A tank should always be putting out their maximum threat (usually maximum damage, too) unless capped by mechanics, ie rage starvation, runes on CD, out of mana. Vigilance on a healer (possibly a holy paladin with righteous fury on) gives an add-tank a place to watch when adds come, and an immediate taunt. This gives an additional element of control to the fight, which is not to be sneezed at. As a boss-tank, however, vigilance should be on the highest aggro dps, or another tank if there is no other 3% less damage tanken buff in the raid. Not having Omen running as a tank is, on one hand, rather strange. On the other hand, it doesn't help if I see the dps at 129%, because I'm already putting out as much tps as I can. Crits as a tank are just as much a luck-thing as for dps, sometimes they just don't happen. Sure, if I have Omen I can call out for salv on someone in vent, but I don't see that as my job as a tank. The dps in question knows better whether they need it or they're just riding for the joy of it and can lose threat in a second, I can't make that call. Now, don't be shy to talk to your paladins, of any type, get them to salv you. But make sure you do it before the fight, many are not used to salving anymore.

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November 06, 2009, 02:29 PM

#32 (permalink)

fizboz

Character Info
Fizzik
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Dunemaul US PvP
Guild: Ghosts of Damnation
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by flyingade

here is the MT i speak of

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings

our other MT is

WoW Heroes - World of Warcraft PvE character info & ratings

who is better geared and does hold agro better.

however Nova will always put vigilence on the highest agroer, normally me, where Evil will tend to put it on his assigned healer. I rarely see a healer anywhere near the top of the agro list but being scottish hes quite stubborn! :-)

I have had a chat with evil and he uses grid but not omen. He says that if he sees the agro warning on Grid flag up then he will put in the big agro grabs (assuming 100 rage) and reign them in.

I think part of my problem is im backing off my dps when i get to equal agro as him on omen knowing that a couple of big crits could pull agro where he doesnt do his big moves til im virtually pulling agro off him.

I have tried to get him to install Omen or change the agro warning settings in Grid but he seems unwilling.

About your Tank Evilpusher (looking at his armory profile) - He'd probably do better to spec into Deep Wounds than Cruelty, but that's not a big issue. Hit cap is 264 and expertise 'soft cap' (bosses can't dodge) is 214. He's pretty close on both sides, so if he's having problems holding threat, then it's probably less to do with his gear set up and more to do with his rotation.

Some pointers you might share (although a DPS telling a tank how to tank will probably be put on ignore):

Heroic Strike is his rage dump. If he's got a full bar of rage and he's not turning his white melee swings into yellow HS (or cleave for multiple mobs), then he's not building anywhere near the threat he could. Just needs to be careful not to 'starve' himself of rage though, so if he's low, lay off the HS.
Vigilance should almost never go to a healer. They produce insignificant amounts of threat. The main benefit to the tank of vigilance is not the 10% it takes from you, it's the 10% (15% since he has the glyph) he gets from you (which benefits everyone), so why Vigil healers at all? Have him repeat to himself : vigil the lock, vigil the lock, vigil the lock...
You can change Vigilance targets - if your #2 threat dies or suddenly threat dumps and you get a new #2, then vigil him. It's not a one-time only buff.
In terms of threat, priority is Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate (to proc Sword & Board), Concussion Blow, Shockwave. At it's most basic, Shield Slam & Revenge whenever it's up and use Devastate to get it up more often.
Use a threat meter - I've never used Grid for threat, but by the time you're getting a warning, it's probably too late to do much. Also, you can't see how far ahead or behind you are on threat. If you don't know this, you don't know if you have to call out for DPS to slow down or if you have enough of a cushion where you can safely rotate in shouts, thunder claps and higher dps moves (like shockwave or concussion blow)

I don't know why he's gemming so much for Parry, he'd be much better served to mix it up and gem for socket bonuses or stamina rather than parry. Still, that's not a 'threat' issue.

Outside of the start of a fight (also re-engagement, like P3 Ony when you have to re-acquire threat) and a few dps buff fights (Hodir, prime example) you should not be in danger of pulling off a warrior tank on a single target. I've been in plenty of situations where DPS has really outgeared me (I don't play my tank so much anymore), and I'll still be miles ahead on threat... the only exceptions are in multiple mob tanking and at the start of a pull.

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November 10, 2009, 03:46 PM	#33 (permalink)
Rozi Character Info Rozi 70 Gnome Warlock Vek'nilash US PvE Guild: Light House	Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat im thinking alot about threat. I scoured the forums for info, but I didnt find what i wanted... so I dug up my log in info from BC (lol) and jumped onto this thread to ask and prod for answers... Yes I know my lock is pretty much a non issue right now but I play a priest (lvl80) on another server cough my lock is who i signed up here with... anyhoo.. I run with a lock or two (they copied each others spec and casting) who pull threat alot, then blame on tanks. The cast they start with tends to be a very high dps one. Im of a mind they could modify that.. to reduce threat. When i was raiding @ level 70 (and yes, I know very well that alot of things changed) the only advice I got when pulling off the tank in threat was "Stop casting for a moment!" Is this advice useless now? The other thought i had, was this, and yes Im probablly going to get yelled at much, the lock i am thinking of would yell.. anyhow.. let me say it.. try not to be offended! At some point losing the top spot of the dps chart, or not putting out the top amount of dps capable is going to sometimes benefit the group as a whole (you not pulling threat off a tank for example will extend the life of the party, not annoy a healer, and not cost you near as much in repairs.) If you are running with a grp that you know are undergeared (or below you in gear) is there any way to just cool it? The guys i run with (and they are guys, and i suspect that heightens the need to be the absolute best on the chart, regardless of the danger.) are both destro locks. I know they have pulled threat off a druid, pally, and warrior of differeing levels (because I was there healing, a healer watches your threat too, esp a disc spec priesty.) I guess what im asking is this: what do i say to this guy to get him to cool it for the sanity of the tanks in the guild? (im an officer there lol) I miss my lock... i may have to level one again sometime. rozi

November 10, 2009, 04:49 PM

#34 (permalink)

fizboz

Character Info
Fizzik
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Dunemaul US PvP
Guild: Ghosts of Damnation
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rozi

If you are running with a grp that you know are undergeared (or below you in gear) is there any way to just cool it? I guess what im asking is this: what do i say to this guy to get him to cool it for the sanity of the tanks in the guild? (im an officer there lol)

Why not? If you significantly overgear your tanks, you're likely to get threat problems no matter how much you wait, and if you're dead, your place on the meters is going to suffer anyway...

When I run heroic pugs, I often get into a situation where the DPS significantly outgears the tank. There are some people who will QQ "L2P" and keep going all out, and there are others (myself included), who will wait, slow down on rotations, pay more attention to omen, etc and have a better (although slower) time of it.

Presumably your tanks will improve as they gear up. Until then, DPS can "DPS very... very... slowwwwwly...". I would make it a priority to gear up your tanks though before the DPS gets frustrated.

What to tell the guy? Depends on his personality. If he loves his place on the meters just tell him he's so awesomely OP that for the good of the group he needs to play blindfolded. If he's reasonable, just ask his help in running raids/heroics to get your tanks geared.

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November 10, 2009, 08:43 PM	#35 (permalink)
lilsteele Character Info lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE	Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat @Rozi As a first step I would stop healing/ressing those locks. There's an old saying that's applicable in most cases: If the tank dies, it's the healers fault. If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If dps dies, it's their own fault. Pulling aggro sometimes happens, to all of us. I usually apologize to the tank and to the group in those cases for causing trouble. Note that I'm not saying that you can't complain about threat. If the tank is not able to build enough threat on the mobs so you can do the dps that's required for a certain instance/raid, then you can complain. But thats not an excuse to actually pull a mob from the tank and messing up the raid in doing so!

November 11, 2009, 04:00 AM	#36 (permalink)
flyingade Character Info flyingade 80 Human Warlock dragonblight Euro PvE Guild: sinister Talent Spec: 3/15/53	Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat thanks for your help guys. Hes not that open to "information" he has his own reasons although he may listen to the case about vigi as if i word it as it giving him more agro rather than reducing mine. If he gives me vigi then he gets more agro so a healer spamming him on high damage fights wont pull agro anyway. thanks for the advice guys. Ade

November 11, 2009, 05:26 AM

#37 (permalink)

Jenren22

Character Info
Jenerena
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Executus Euro PvP
Guild: Deliverance
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by fizboz

It's only respectful to do this. We went to OK the other day for the daily and we were all guildies apart from the tank, who was a very very weak tank and undergeared. If i was a tank just starting out, i wouldnt appreciate having it rubbed in my face by dps pulling all the mobs. Have some respect and dps slowly.

November 11, 2009, 07:55 AM	#38 (permalink)
S_Id Character Info SpackaBrain 80 Undead Warlock Spinebreaker Euro PvP Guild: Meatball of War Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/14/57	Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat Another thing which I sometimes do if I'm running with a tank who I severely outgear is swap my weapon for my argent lance, dropping 600 odd spellpower lets me dps as normal without having to worry about pulling aggro and I still do enough dps to clear the heroic.

November 11, 2009, 02:53 PM

#39 (permalink)

fizboz

Character Info
Fizzik
80 Blood Elf Warlock
Dunemaul US PvP
Guild: Ghosts of Damnation
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/13/58

Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by S_Id

Another thing which I sometimes do if I'm running with a tank who I severely outgear is swap my weapon for my argent lance, dropping 600 odd spellpower lets me dps as normal without having to worry about pulling aggro and I still do enough dps to clear the heroic.

Never thought about this. Next time I'm in this situation the fishing pole is coming out!

November 11, 2009, 11:39 PM

#40 (permalink)

Elricc

Character Info
Elricc
80 Human Warlock
Nagrand Oceania PvE
Guild: The Silver Hand
Talent Spec: Destro

Re: Tanks, you need to make some threat

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilsteele

@Rozi

As a first step I would stop healing/ressing those locks.

There's an old saying that's applicable in most cases:
If the tank dies, it's the healers fault. If the healer dies, it's the tanks fault. If dps dies, it's their own fault.

Pulling aggro sometimes happens, to all of us. I usually apologize to the tank and to the group in those cases for causing trouble.

Note that I'm not saying that you can't complain about threat. If the tank is not able to build enough threat on the mobs so you can do the dps that's required for a certain instance/raid, then you can complain. But thats not an excuse to actually pull a mob from the tank and messing up the raid in doing so!

/Agree

I have seen this from both sides-DPS & Tank. There is no simple answer the closes I have found is- the group is a team & if the team fails its not always a single members fault but if 1 member is a moron then chances are they will be the culprit.

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