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The Warlocks Den - WoW Warlock Discussions » Discussion Forums » World of Warcraft Discussion » Improved soul leech vs. suppression

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Old November 25, 2009, 02:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
Ale

Character Info
Voraster
80 Human Warlock
Alleria US PvE
Guild: Heresy
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Quote:
Originally Posted by dozens View Post
I never said it made no sense just not alot of sense. I am sure there are gear levels where it might be optimal but if you dont use suppression then you are gimping your other stats haste, spirit, crit and maybe even spellpower to have hit so you are doing less dps.
It depends on what gear you have available to you. You can equip more spirit and haste gear with suppression - if you have it. But ISL builds benefit from dps increases in other ways - fewer life taps, fewer imp misses, fewer reign of the unliving misses. It's close enough that you just take what is best for your gear and encounter.

The real benefit for me to the suppression build is the different utility you can get from speccing into healthstones, shadowfury, soul link, threat reduction. Options you don't have with ISL.
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Old November 25, 2009, 04:06 PM   #22 (permalink)

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Fauste
80 Human Warlock
Feathermoon US RP PvE
Guild: Kaizen
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

I occasionally run with a Destro/Soul Link spec to tank Acidmaw in ToGC25, and for this spec I have to drop ISL. The difference in available mana is astounding. I assume (perhaps wrongly) that most people who avoid ISL do not understand just how beneficial it is.

Suppression is an excellent talent that lets you overcome hit gear deficiencies, and I ran with the +hit talents for a while in Naxx.

That said, I do not understand why anyone would willingly place points into Suppression unless they do not have the hit gear.

I've been luckier than most with respect to trinket drops and can now swap trinkets as necessary to maintain a maxed hit rating, regardless of group composition. In fact, I struggle to keep my hit low (I prefer to be over the hit cap rather than under it, and my struggle is to minimize the amount I'm over by.)


"dozens" post stated that "if you dont use suppression then you are gimping your other stats haste, spirit, crit and maybe even spellpower to have hit". He is not alone. Forum postings repeatedly mention that grabbing Suppression allows you to pick up additional stats in place of hit.

This does not make sense to me.

I would currently never take Suppression simply because +hit is so incredibly cheap as a gear stat. Generally speaking, each dps increasing talent is supposed to increase your dps by approximately 1%, but itemization of 1% hit is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to any other stat.

Do people not factor this in, or am I missing something?
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Old November 25, 2009, 04:21 PM   #23 (permalink)

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Doombledore
85 Human Warlock
Ysondre US PvP
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Tree: Demonology
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Take a random sample of gear alliance cloth chest i245 6 pieces total, 3 with hit and without, 2 of the pieces with hit have no spirit on an almost 1-1 ratio (ie 80 hit instead of 80 spirit). The one piece with hit and spirit has no haste. If you take 3 points in suppression that is worth around 80 hit and basically allows you to get 80+ points in haste or spirit.

Quote:
I would currently never take Suppression simply because +hit is so incredibly cheap as a gear stat. Generally speaking, each dps increasing talent is supposed to increase your dps by approximately 1%, but itemization of 1% hit is CHEAP CHEAP CHEAP compared to any other stat.
Is that the general assumption about talents? Is 80+ haste or spirit not equal a 3% increase in dps? On the other hand is ISL cost 5 talent points, is it a 5% increase in DPS?
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Old November 25, 2009, 05:54 PM   #24 (permalink)

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Fauste
80 Human Warlock
Feathermoon US RP PvE
Guild: Kaizen
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Quote:
Originally Posted by dozens View Post
Is that the general assumption about talents?
Yep. I can't find a link, but the blues have stated as much. Some talents are worth more than 1%, and are thus regarded as "must haves". The ones which are less than 1% are generally considered either sub-par, or utility talents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dozens View Post
Is 80+ haste or spirit not equal a 3% increase in dps?
Neither 82 haste nor 82 spirit are equal to 82 hit, in terms of raw dps.
82 hit = 3.13%
You can calculate the value of spirit and haste using the following specs:

Current rankings from elitist Jerks:
3/13/55
Stat Weight
Intellect 0.27
Spirit 0.86
Crit rating 0.87
Haste rating 0.90
Spell power 1.34

0/13/58
Stat Weight
Intellect 0.58
Spirit 0.74
Crit rating 1.04
Haste rating 1.56
Spell power 1.54

Quote:
Originally Posted by dozens View Post
On the other hand is ISL cost 5 talent points, is it a 5% increase in DPS?
Good point!

SL is admittedly intended to be a utility talent, but once you are deep enough into the Destruction tree, you have excess talent points that can really only be used for utility. I'd personally value it much greater than points into any other utility talent, such as improved health stone or nether protection, but it's true worth is subjective and situational.

ISL is also intended to be a utility talent, but includes a good personal dps component. I don't know how much of a boost to dps it is, but it's enough that the simcrafts I've seen between 3/13/55 and 0/13/58 are negligible, which indicates to me that those 2 points into ISL are worth at least the 3% dps from Suppression. Interestingly, the elitist jerks page I referenced earlier indicates that 0/13/58 is the highest theoretical dps spec on "tank and spank" fights, however not all sites agree: These results indicate 3/13/55 is better, but only by 8dps - less than 0.1%) Because simcraft is "optimal" and does not take into account the increased survivability due to utility talents, the choice is obvious to me.
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Old November 25, 2009, 06:26 PM   #25 (permalink)

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Loech
80 Orc Warlock
Suramar US PvE
Guild: Into the Abyss
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

In your second spec there, the 0/13/58 one, how does the stat weight of spirit come to be 0.74 when the weight of SP is 1.54? Is there no Glyph of Life Tap in that build? I was given to understand that Glyph of Life Tap was ubiquitous. There should be no lock build without it. With Glyph of Life Tap, when SP is weighted at 1.54 then spirit should be weighted at 1, simply due to the spell power component, let alone the mana return.
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Old November 25, 2009, 06:49 PM   #26 (permalink)

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lilsteele
80 Human Warlock
Terenas Euro PvE
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

because the thread he linked to is horribly outdated, which is clearly stated in the first line of that thread.

EJ is currently not providing scale factors (probably Zakalwe was too lazy to run all those sims before 3.3 out). Up to date scale factors can normally be found on the simcraft website - follow the "sample output" links.


@Fauste

I don't understand what you are saying. In one post you say that you don't understand how anyone can use suppression. Then however you say that the suppression build is slightly better, and the choice is clear due to more utility talents? So you take suppression now?

Anyways, running with ISL is a dream when it comes to mana management.
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Old November 25, 2009, 07:12 PM   #27 (permalink)

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Fauste
80 Human Warlock
Feathermoon US RP PvE
Guild: Kaizen
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Glyph of life tap is definitely not ubiquitous. There are posts supporting both it's use and disuse, but the difference seems very small either way (as in less than 0.2%)

I personally don't use it for two reasons:
1.) Not having to maintain it keeps my rotation cleaner and tighter.
2.) As much as I enjoy the ebb and flow of life/mana, there is too much random raid damage these days. I've been killed several times by lifetapping then taking a random damage - damage which would not otherwise have killed me.
DEAD DPSERS ARE USELESS

I life tap as seldom as possible, and I wait for safe lulls in the fight as often as possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsteele View Post
because the thread he linked to is horribly outdated, which is clearly stated in the first line of that thread.
I couldn't find anything more current. I'd be very grateful for an up-to-date link. (edit: the point I was making stands however - hit is, and As far as I know always has been, the cheapest stat to itemize for dps gain.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsteele View Post
@Fauste

I don't understand what you are saying. In one post you say that you don't understand how anyone can use suppression. Then however you say that the suppression build is slightly better, and the choice is clear due to more utility talents? So you take suppression now?
Sorry if that was unclear.
I understand someone using suppression *if they do not have a selection of gear which will get them hit capped.* Outside that, I do not understand it. I am open to education on this point.

The referenced posts showed that the theoretical dps difference between the two specs is negligible (less than 0.1%). Because the tools used to generate the theoretical best spec do not take into account the "random shit" element of real world raiding, the increased survivability of having SL and ISL make the 0/13/58 build even more attractive.

To be clear: I do not use Suppression. I used it while playing Affliction in the Naxx days, but specced out once I acquired sufficient +hit gear. I have not specced back into it since. It seemed every drop I got in Ulduar had +hit on it, and I was desperate for haste and spirit. At one point, if I equipped it all, I would have over 20% hit. Perhaps this has given me a better opportunity than other players to mix and match gear while maintaining max +hit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsteele View Post
Anyways, running with ISL is a dream when it comes to mana management.
Agreed. Having been forced to spec out of it, my appreciation has grown considerably.

Last edited by Fauste; November 25, 2009 at 07:16 PM..
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Old November 25, 2009, 07:29 PM   #28 (permalink)

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lilsteele
80 Human Warlock
Terenas Euro PvE
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

SampleOutputT9Warlock - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code

up to date scale factors
you linked to this site yourself

anyways, the suppression spec can take one point in Soul Link, which in my opinion is superior to all random uncontrollable healing that you get from Soul Leech or from the corresponding affliction talents. You also can take two points in destructive reach without dropping any dps talent. So in my opinion, the suppression build is vastly superior to ISL in terms of utility, except if you have to bring replenishment for the raid.
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Old November 25, 2009, 08:44 PM   #29 (permalink)

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Loech
80 Orc Warlock
Suramar US PvE
Guild: Into the Abyss
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Hmm, I get around 165 SP from my GoLT which is roughly +3.5% damage. I don't see 5% Incin damage beating that. 1.5% Incin damage or 3.5% Immolate, conflagrate, CB, Corr and CoD?

Speaking of glyphs, I don't know why people take Incin over immolate. Boosting Immolate DoT by 10% boosts conflagrate by 10%. My total Immo (DoT) + Conf damage > 50% of Incin damage. Can someone explain to me why people take Incin?
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Old November 25, 2009, 09:18 PM   #30 (permalink)

Character Info
Fauste
80 Human Warlock
Feathermoon US RP PvE
Guild: Kaizen
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Re: Improved soul leech vs. suppression

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsteele View Post
SampleOutputT9Warlock - simulationcraft - Project Hosting on Google Code

up to date scale factors
you linked to this site yourself
doh!
Thanks, this will help me with Rhad's mod later tonight too. You can see that this still supports my assertion that +hit is more cheaply gained through gear than talents. This means that 3/3 suppression is worth *less* than a talent which gives 1% crit or 1% haste from a gear itemization standpoint. The problem seems to be that there are no more +haste or +crit talents to take, and Suppression is a lesser of remaining evils, if you don't need replenishment. It's a crap dps gain, but on par with what you get from the 5 points in ISL, and it allows you to place points into other talents.


Quote:
Originally Posted by lilsteele View Post
anyways, the suppression spec can take one point in Soul Link, which in my opinion is superior to all random uncontrollable healing that you get from Soul Leech or from the corresponding affliction talents. You also can take two points in destructive reach without dropping any dps talent. So in my opinion, the suppression build is vastly superior to ISL in terms of utility, except if you have to bring replenishment for the raid.
My replenishment isn't needed for 25 mans, but is for 10 mans.

3/14/54 is an interesting deviation, and I'll keep this in mind if I need another point in Destructive Reach (I'm currently running with 1 point, and our off-tank is, ahem, "hard pressed" to hold agro on some fights.) Less raid utility, but more personal utility.

I cant shake the sense that Suppression is a crap talent to keep once you have good gear though. And your spec, while having noticeable merit, is not the typical 3/13/55 spec most destro locks with suppression use. Of course, they would have Soul Burn instead of Soul Link, and IMHO that's only really useful on trash/pvp.

Is Soul Link + 2/2 Destructive Reach the only reason to go 3/14/54?

I must ponder...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigoroth View Post
Hmm, I get around 165 SP from my GoLT which is roughly +3.5% damage. I don't see 5% Incin damage beating that. 1.5% Incin damage or 3.5% Immolate, conflagrate, CB, Corr and CoD?
Incinerate comprises between 62 and 65% of my damage in an average fight. The glyph is for 5% increased damage, which means it's worth about 3.1 - 3.25% total increase. Not too far off from your 3.5%, with no health hazard, no additional global cooldowns, and a simpler rotation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigoroth View Post
Speaking of glyphs, I don't know why people take Incin over immolate. Boosting Immolate DoT by 10% boosts conflagrate by 10%. My total Immo (DoT) + Conf damage > 50% of Incin damage. Can someone explain to me why people take Incin?
Immolate and Conflagrate, together, account for about 23% - 25% of my total damage. That's glyphed. So 10% of that is only 2.3 - 2.5% of my total damage. If I were so inclined, I think swapping the Immolate glyph for a Life Tap glyph would seem to be more beneficial than dropping the Incinerate glyph, but with global cooldowns taken into account, the two are close enough that speculation continues unabated. Other factors (such as survivability) can tip the scales one way or the other.

As someone else mentioned, it's largely down to play style now.

Last edited by Fauste; November 25, 2009 at 09:21 PM..
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