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November 23, 2008, 08:48 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approach
So I have been trying to get out some decent level 80 raiding specs. First of all Meta/Ruin... Very easy to come up with. Something like this: Pros:
Cons:
Tough points:
Why ISB and Shadowburn? ISB increases your SB damage by 10%. It should have a permanent uptime (I have about 25% spell crit with Firestone not raid buffed), especially Raid Buffed. Shadowburn is more of a PvP talent. Why Cataclysm and Molten Core? Spell hit and more mana efficiency with Cataclysm, very nice. Molten Core will proc a lot because you will be firing Shadowbolts, and Curse of Agony and Corr will be up on the target. This will make your Immolate do a nice amount of extra damage. But Incinerate or Shadowbolt when Molten Core is up? For me it will be Shadowbolt. Why? Shadowbolt has a higher spell coefficient, but the same casting time due to Bane. Max rank Shadowbolt: 690 damage. 85.71% spell coefficient. Max rank Incinerate: 582 + 145.5 damage (if Immolate is up). 71.43% Assume 1500 spell power. Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1500*0.8571 = 1975.65 damage Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage. This makes Incinerate a better choice with 1500 spell power. Imagine Demonic Pact kicking in, so 1650 spell power. Shadowbolt damage: 690 + 1650*0.8571 = 2104.215 damage Incinerate damage: ((582 + 145.5) + 1650*0.7143)*1.1 = 2096.7045 damage. This means that Shadowbolt will be superior over Incinerate with higher spellpower even if Molten Core is up. Breakeven point: 690 + x*0.8571 = ((582+145.5)+x*0.7143)*1.1So from 1545 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt > Incinerate when MC is up. When MC is not up Shadowbolt will be superior. Now... Molten Core vs ISB? When Spell Hit is maxed out, so Cataclysm is not needed, Shadowbolt clearly wins. It's damage is higher than Incinerate from 1545 Spell Power onwards during Molten Core. With ISB up Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate from: (690 + x*0.8571)*1.1 = (582+145.5)+x*0.7143From -136 Spell Power onwards Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate. This basically means that without Molten Core but with ISB Shadowbolt will overpower Incinerate. Imagine 1500 Spell Power Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1 = 2173.215 damage Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage. Shadowbolt vastly outdamages Incinerate at 1500 Spell Power with ISB even if Incinerate has Molten Core. And the damage difference will only get bigger with higher Spell Power. Now imagine you sacrifice the 3% Spell Hit from Cataclysm to get ISB. This means Incinerate will do it's full 100% damage while Immolate will do 97% damage. Imagine 1500 Spell Power Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + 1500*0.8571)*1.1*0.97 = 2108.01855 damage Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + 1500*0.7143)*1.1 = 1978.845 damage. Now the formula: Shadowbolt damage (ISB): (690 + (spell power)*0.8571)*1.1*(chance to hit, capped at 1) = damage Incinerate damage (MC): ((582 + 145.5) + (spell power)*0.7143)*1.1*(chance to hit + 0.03, capped at 1) = damage. Spell Power: A (690 + A*0.8571)*1.1*x = ((582+145.5)+A*0.7143)*1.1*(x+0.03)Now we calculate at 17% chance to miss (the maximum) wether ISB or MC is better. 0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + A*0.78573)/(759 + A*0.94281)Now the Spell Power where the damage is the same: 0.83/0.86 = (800.25 + x*0.78573)/(759 + x*0.94281)With greater Spell Hit the fraction x/(x+0.03) will become ever bigger. So x*(number) will always become bigger, and thus x itself will become ever smaller. This means that with the bare minimum Spell Hit (0) ISB build > MC/Cataclysm build from 546 Spell Power onwards. And with greater Spell Hit this number will become lower. And it is certain that every level 80 Demo Warlock has a Spell Power greater than that (Demonic Knowledge). So ISB/Shadowburn is better than MC/Cataclysm for a raiding Meta Warlock.
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"Rock is fine, Scissors is OP." - Paper |
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November 23, 2008, 08:55 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Barclande 70 Undead Warlock Smolderthorn US PvP Guild: Writhen Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40 |
Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Was thinking of a very similar build, however, a few minor changes. Instead of Improved HS, Master Conjuror. Reasoning is simple, more DPS. Instead of Demonic Resilience, Demonic Empathy. Again, more DPS. Just my thoughts, and what I am planning on going with. |
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November 24, 2008, 09:37 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Well I thought of those too, but I intent to PvP a lot as well (Arena), so you can't get around Imp HS for a Demo build. Same for Demonic Resilience, now my Felguard can survive a good Rogue pounding. BTW Demonic Empathy only triggers off Abilities/Spells, not auto-attack. It will only trigger off your Felguard's Cleave and Intercept. That's why I didn't get it. Demonic Pact of the other hand does trigger off auto-attack crits, and that is why I got it. It's a very nice talent, adds a huge load of SP to your raid, and healers are very thankful for it.
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"Rock is fine, Scissors is OP." - Paper |
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November 24, 2008, 10:55 AM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Ok, only real question i have is, what is the demoninc frenzy effect? what triggers it, and exactly what does it give? I have been using the demon raid spec before Wrath went live and have yet to see a buff of that yet. Does it only show up on the demon? |
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November 24, 2008, 11:49 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Outstanding post!!!!! |
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November 24, 2008, 11:56 AM
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#6 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Kilmir 70 Gnome Warlock Aszune Euro PvE Guild: Been There Done That Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Quote:
Demonic Brutality increases that buff with 1/2/3% per application giving 8% more AP per hit on the max rank for a total of 80% AP increase. Glyph of Felguard gives another 10% more AP, but I'm not sure if it's additive or is a multiplier before or after the buff. |
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November 26, 2008, 05:05 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Vitriolic 80 Undead Warlock Darkspear US PvP Guild: Delirium Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
From a purely PVE perspective, not being tethered by Demonic Resilience and Imp HS gives you much more flexibility with those last couple of points. I would be a bit tempted to try something like this out which really puts an emphasis on SB damage, gives you the utterly invaluable +3% hit, and also provides a little bit of a threat reduction. |
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November 26, 2008, 11:30 PM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Well, I get Imp HS because it makes my HS heal almost 1k more damage (and for PvP). Same goes for Demonic Resilience, nice for PvP. But it's also nice to have your Felguard be able to tank a load of damage. I find it very useful when multimobbing, or soloing elites. I find that Imp Health Funnel is not really necessary, though it's really useful when soloing elites. Fel Synergy + the occasional Chain Heal are more than enough to keep your Felguard alive during raids. On the other hand, from a pure PvE perspective, Meta/Ruin is not a good build. You can not keep up with Hunters/Mages/Rogues/other non Demo locks on longer fights. In Heroics it shines because bosses die within 1-2 minutes, so the incredibile burst you give during Meta counts heavily. On those longer fights that will last 4 minutes, or 6, only a very small part of that time is Metamorphosed. You would be better off, damagewise, with Haunt/Ruin or a deep Destro build (0/20/51 for example). I got Meta/Ruin for PvP, and I try to make the best DPS possible with it in raids. A nice method to increase DPS is, when you proc meta, pop your trinket, charge the boss, activate Immolation Aura and also right clickthe boss to auto attack it. Queue up Shadow Cleave whenever it's up. It does not count towards the GCD of your other spells so it is a very nice addiction, because you will melee during the times you are not casting (for example during the GCD of Curse of Agony or Corr). Of course this is not viable on melee unfriendly fights, such as Archavon.
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"Rock is fine, Scissors is OP." - Paper |
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November 28, 2008, 03:02 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Mike, what is your rotation. I really like your spec, im about to try it. 0 55 16 that it. |
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November 28, 2008, 03:53 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Khaf 80 Blood Elf Warlock Uldaman US PvE Guild: Fruit Explosion Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/53/18 |
Re: Meta/Ruin build: ISB/Shadowburn vs Cataclysm/MC, a mathematical approac
Hope it's OK to sneak this question in here. If you want to PvP with a build like this, is aftermath completely useless? I solo a lot and do the occasional BG, so I don't feel the need to focus so many talent points on my DPS. |
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