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December 08, 2008, 05:12 AM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Sehv 80 Undead Warlock Kilrogg US PvE Guild: Psycho Beast Killers Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Spec recommendations for all
Hello, I've been a den member for approximately 3 years, but this is barely my 3rd post. I tend not to say much unless I have something I think is (i) not being said, (ii) not being discussed fairly. A bit about me, I have played a warlock for three years and avidly theory craft. I also have put out consistently high dps in medium gear, which is indicative that I have a good understanding of how to milk DPS based on what gear you are in. Pre 3.0, my guild was starting sunwell, and when Wrath of the Lich King rolled around, we had slowed down at felmyst. Currently we have three groups clearing 10 naxx, and we just finished thaddeus in 25 man. We are an average fun and family guild with 3 raid nights, but we are all pretty solid players with a good handle on the theory craft. So, here we go. Let's talk talents. Specs. Everybody wants the best one. I made a post a week ago which pretty much said that while a spec is important, the magical 'best spec' is not an absolute. Consider that each player has a particular play style, and each encounter gives different rotations an edge (or lack thereof). As well, specs scale according to whom you are grouped with, or which roll you are filling. Take your mind OUT of the box and consider that the best players are not the ones which can get the biggest dps number on patchwerk. The best players are the most informed, most adaptable, and most consistent players. That being said, there seems to be a wave of individuals that think affliction far outranks other specs. Affliction is a great way to go; however, let's not poo poo some other hybrid specs or deep destro specs. In the last week, I've specced into 6 different classic raiding specs and here is my take on each of them. From least favorite to favorite: 0/56/15 - Metamorph+Felguard Metamorph was a fun talent to run with. It is great for soloing and has excellent utility in both PvE an PvP. This spec really reminded me of the old school 0/21/40, mostly because you get to spam shadow bolts for huge stacking crits. The only difference is you are given a felguard who puts up competetive damage, and keeps up buffs/debuffs for a raid. Personally, I found that once I became a serious raider again, I had trouble with managing my felguard, and metamorph was only slightly better than trinketting on bosses. If you are good at timing it (aka find those moment where your DPS is exponentially increased, then ramp it up even further with the 20% SD bonus for 30s) it can be a lot of fun, but personally I found it a bit unwieldly. If you are the only demo lock in a spell casting raid, it can be quite handy for the debuffs alone. Notable, until last week, Hams from Ensidia was running this spec as the only demo (of 4 locks) in the guild. 0/41/30 - Felguard, DT, Emberstorm This spec takes the awesomeness (or lose) of the felguard and pairs it up with deeper destruction. Drawing from the mana efficiency of fire (more so than shadow without the glyph), this rotation is only slightly harder; you need an immolate up as often as possible or your dps drops. your spell power will scale nicely with greater gear, and though you discard your metamorph pop and stacking SB crits, you gain back the scaling through emberstorm and molten core. Just be sure to keep corruption up (which may warrant the glyph of corruption for a glyph) and Curse of Agony (if you're not on CoE) for maximum molten core proc time. I have a personal vendetta against the felguard simply because I suck at using it, but if you excel in that area, this spec may be good for you and your end game. 0/31/40 - DE Imp + S&F So you appreciate destro, but your gear is not all there. You are mostly doing heroics and you don't care much about trash, but your focus target dps is important to you (boss fights!). You are hoping to break the 2k dps barrier as you start 10 man naxx with your guild. You suck at rotations, and your pet management is even worse. This spec is perfect for you. It's a good easy rotation - just dump Curse of Agony, corruption, immolate, then spam incinerate. pop your imp's demonic empowerment for 700 damage firebolts at a moderate rate. The point doesn't really have anywhere better to go unless you want shadowfury (which I love and miss) as a stun for when you mistakenly pull aggro with your faceripping single target dps. Not much to say, except this is a good raid spec if you have medium gear and DK isn't really worth it for you yet. It also is great if you don't like timing backlash, but you still want a little finisher that doesn't eat up your soul shards (conflag). 0/13/51+7 - Chaos Bolt, D.Aegis If you love the bang and efficiency of chaos bolt, take it. If it makes you feel hawt that you can see a 8-10k crit with midrange gear, take it. I used this spec when I first dung 80. I loved it. It has great utility with shadowfury and chaos bolt, and it frontloads a great amount of burst that keeps you from feeling outclassed during the crazy trash-rolling in Wrath of the Lich King. use chaos bolt and corruption in tandem privy to immolate so that you can maximize its up time with incinerate spams. You will have roughly 1900 dps and a high amount of utility in raid-entry gear. I didn't like backlash because it clipped my immolate and chaos bolt, which to me was a waste of talent points. This spec really appealed to me because it ripped faces in PvP and was very PvE viable. You can easily lock up and kite a character with shadowfury, fear and deathcoil, and you still hit very hard, especially with chaos bolt. For me, I placed the 7 points in my imp and pet utility because alone he would generate about 3-400 dps. If you prefer more defensive thinking (or if you pvp a lot) consider nether protection. Interesting, but when ensidia cleared all Wrath of the Lich King content, this was the spec that Buzzkill and Damia used. Great leg in, especially if you are trotting BT/Sunwell gear. 53/0/18 - Deep affliction Deep affliction talents get tossed around quite a bit. It all depends on your MT's threat gen (imp drain soul), other warlocks in the group (malediction), your hit (suppression, cataclysm), and whether or not you like including immolate in your rotation (molten core, often taken from 1 point in cataclysm). The details of this spec will switch and swotch, so this here is just an example of deep affliction - the one I chose. I had a lot of fun with this particular spec; unfortunately it was very heavy on my ability to count and play consistently. If you are considering this spec, here are a few tips: You NEED to be able to estimate how fast a mob is going down and adjust your rotation accordingly. You NEED to know how much threat your spells place on mobs so that you can stack dots on MULTIPLE mobs or you will feel utterly defeated on trash both in heroics and raids. You NEED to have high hit on bosses, or your haunt drops off, and so does your dps - much like a Demonic knowledge warlock having their pet killed. This spec will only be worth it if you are highly raid aware, because if you die, your DPS is ZERO funtil you are brought up again. I used a plethora of dot timers and warnings through my scrolling text, and though I could get good dps, I hated staring at bars. I play a healing druid as well, and I found the experience to be much like that. I was so busy trying to manage my timers that I didn't even look at the boss. It was mostly where am I standing, and which hotkey should I press next. The big plus though, is that this spec lets you drain-soul-execute very effectively. Nothing is more fun than seeing drain soul ticking for upward of 10k. The largest I got was 11k, but I hear it is about 13k for 4 piece wearers who know how to time lifetap and trinket pop (I use the egg and compass, so no timing for me). In this spec, spell power = spell hit > spell crit > spell haste. And yes, I as an aside, I personally believe spell power is greater than spell hit because the rating cost has gone through the roof. It makes sense to me both through theory crafting and through testing. To an extent of course. So back on topic, if you are a very good micromanager and you enjoy TIMING TIMING TIMING, give this spec a shot. You no longer need to worry about the debuff cap. Go hog wild. 0/40/31 - Imp DK + Emberstorm My favorite spec at the moment. On patchwerk, I hit 4000 DPS in 3 piece T7 today. I still need to reitemize gems and slap on a shoulder enchant, so I would be surprised if this can break the 4k barrier without consumables. But before you get to excited, this is fully buffed and flasked, so don't let the number decide for you. This is an excellent single target spec, but it loses on utility. Your pet MUST stay alive, and you must have high haste and hit to really milk the damage. On fights like Loatheb, you will not measure up to others because the 50% crit does not scale as well past a certain point. (I was at 89% crit after talents and buff, and it did not push me up as much dps as when I was 0/13/51+7 with the same). This spec brags _almost_ even dps as deep affliction; for specific players and styles, I would say this is superior to it. It sure matched me. The deep demo spells will help your dps scale better with gear than chaos bolt and backlash (deep destro). True, S&F will scale slightly, but it does not give you as much spell damage back for the raid buffs you receive in 25 man instances. Fully buffed, I was at 30% crit, 2600 spell damage, and 400 haste, hit capped. Thank you for buffing my imp. I have not yet adjusted my spec to grab demonic sacrifice, but I recommend it for fights where your imp doesn't get important buffs you do. For example, on thaddeus, your imp does not get a charge, therefore he does not receive the buff. sacrifice him for 10% more damage; he couldn't make the jump anyway ;). Improved stones is only a minor increase, so some don't take it. As well, late game, you may not need all three points in cataclysm, so get rid of the 1% mana back (if you're hit capped for 2/3 in the 300 range hit - much easier for alliance with your dranei friends) and grab 1% crit from backlash. A final plug, this is buzzkill's current spec (from ensidia). Damia was more a pioneer with a slightly altered version. But now, three of the four locks run with this. Hams even got off his deep-demo debuff raid utility spec and picked up a variant of this bad boy. Use it and don't let deep affliction look down on other specs. This nailed me second (my meter said 1st... gr...) on patchwerk on my most recent WWS log with 4096 dps. Affliction lock with almost even gear (one less T7, non-set breaking) was only 10,000 damage behind in 4th place with 4064 dps. So the summary of this spec is that it works very well if you are getting geared (I began once I had all the heroic drops I wanted - This was at about the 190 badge mark), and you hope to do a lot of 25 man raids and are great about letting your imp eat buffs (I keep him un phase shifted all the time). So there you have it. Several specs to play around with. The honest truth is that when you know your game, these key specs often only give hairline splits between dps according to meters. It is more valuable that you choose a fun spec that you can understand, and learn to milk your dps. Meters don't tell you who is the most valuable damage dealing raid member; They only tell you who knows how to push DPS. And this is only useful in certain contexts. It's like asking a healer what their HPS is. It's not always how much healing they can pump out, it's when they apply it and who to. Hope these descriptions and links give you all a chance to try something new, and I look forward to seeing the warlock community continue to grow and challenge the stereotypes which have been cast upon us for the past few years. We do have flavor, and we do know how to play. Feel free to post comments and I'll do my best to respond amidst my exams. edit1: fixed a typo (re: zix) edit2: omg this post is getting attention; I fixed a couple grammatical errors Last edited by Sevlana; December 08, 2008 at 07:46 AM.. |
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December 08, 2008, 05:52 AM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
gorthaub 80 Blood Elf Warlock Aerie Peak Euro PvE Guild: Unwise Elders Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/13/5 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
great post, although you did not include the shadowbolt spam combination with affliction and destruction talents (for instance, 30/0/41, which include 15% shadowdamage instead of 0/30/41, which is focussed on fire damage). |
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December 08, 2008, 06:17 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Apostrof 80 Human Warlock Executus Euro PvP Guild: Cyber Army Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/0/17 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
First off, thanks a LOT for this post. And as gorthaub said, you didnt mention affliction/destruction spec, something like 31/0/40. Since you are obviously better at this stuff than me can you point out some flaws in this build, i planned to use it when i hit level 80. And since almost no one is even talking about this or similar build is it even worth trying? |
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December 08, 2008, 06:28 AM
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#4 (permalink) |
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Re: Spec recommendations for all
Akasha takes out her bubble gum and makes the thread all sticky...
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Whether you're a forum expert, newbie or just want a good laugh...
Everyone can learn something from : Posting And You... They're, there, their? Wear, were, where? Test yourself! |
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December 08, 2008, 06:32 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Re: Spec recommendations for all
Hello, first of all thanks for this guide, very well written. Two remarks: 1) 0/41/30 specc: put the 2 point from Imp. Healthstone into Demonic Tactics, there they are much more valuable. 2) 0/40/31 specc: the only difference in playstyle to 0/41/30 is the use of the imp, who is improved by Imp. Imp and one point in Demonic Power - is this really enough to put him ahead of the felguard dps - wise? (leaving aside questions like "Which pet will die more frequently due to AoE?" etc.) |
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December 08, 2008, 06:32 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
zix 80 Undead Warlock thunderhorn Euro PvE Guild: Dutch Elites Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/3/15 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
very nice ... slight mistype 0/53/18 - Deep affliction should be 53/0/18 imo Thanks! |
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December 08, 2008, 07:26 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Sehv 80 Undead Warlock Kilrogg US PvE Guild: Psycho Beast Killers Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
Alright. I typed many paragraphs about some of the comments here (especially apostrophe's) but then I realized it was slightly longwinded and useless. Here are them in short: @ gorthaub Mainly I did not include it because I did not try it. Take a look at what I say to apostrophe. @ Apostrophe Looks like an interesting build I wrote up a ton for you, but then copied it out and saved it as a text document on my desktop. The long and short was that it is a good entry build, but it does not scale as well as other builds. A glaring problem is that the mid destro spells point you to use fire while the early and mid affliction point you toward shadow. Which filler spell did you plan on using, incinerate or shadowbolt? I would likely go with shadowbolt if I started that way, and I don't believe the points leading up to shadow and flame are worth it in comparison to other points out there. Also, this spec may have difficulty on fast dying things (trash) and will not gain from buffs the way other specs do. It has a lot to do with the source of your damage being a bit imbalanced in the stats that bode best for them. For example crit will greatly help keep your ISB up and improve your shadow bolt damage, but without pandemic, it's lost on dots. Haste will increase your long cast damage output (shadow bolt) but remember haste helps damage output but burns mana faster. Some people look at DPM (damage per mana) and DPCT (damage per cast time) as separate values. I don't really want to sit and crunch it out (I'm more of a do'er) so why don't you tell me what you feel the strengths and weaknesses are after you try it? That will be more valuable than the ramblings of an ignorant warlock (that's me!). @ Leyras Point 1: (Imp HS -> DT) cannot happen because you need 5 points in tier 1. If you meant fel synergy -> DT, some choose that, but it depends on your current stats. Aim for 30% crit and you're gravy. Point 2: The difference is the imp generates great single target pet dps while the felguard is more for AoE. The up time on demonic power is quite nice for an imp. I get 1600 fireball crits, so when I pop it it is quite nice for me. Also, I find the imp requires a lot less micro management (just park him on a target and press demonic tactic-bound incinerate every 60s) which is good for a simpleton like myself. As I said earlier, felguard is a love or hate relationship. If it works for you, give him a ride. IMO I prefer to measure my own performances by boss fights, which in naxx, are mostly single target (or spread multi target). When it comes to AoEing, it happens quickly and vigorously, hence the felguard doesn't have his time to shine. Poor thing shall always be called Felguard by a mean lock such as myself. |
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December 08, 2008, 07:54 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Re: Spec recommendations for all
1) Looked two times, should have looked a third time  . You' re right, i meant fel synergy => DT. I assumed you also had 5/5 in Demonic Embrace, which you haven' t, and didn' t see the two points in Fel Synergy, which I left out in my build.I guess you' ll have to see how much damage the felguard takes. Till now I have mostly done a lot of heroics, an he didn' t die that often on bossfights (more on trash due to aggro)... So I think I' ll have to see how he will do in Naxx (how much damage he takes, if I can get the healers to have an eye on him etc.) and will then eventually put one or two points from Demonic Tactics in Fel Synergy to keep him alive. Has anyone else perhaps tested both speccs? 2) You're right, it' s mostly love him or hate him (felguard).. I love him for his higher survivability (Imp gets hit and falls to the ground - hate him ) and in heroics his off-tank - ability (always good for saving the healer) , but of course that also depends on the fight. Anyways, thank you for your input, I' ll surely give this spec a try, also because I think that once I get better gear, I'll change to 0/31/40 (=> also Imp) anyways, which should scale really nicely due to S&F ... Last edited by Leyras; December 08, 2008 at 08:16 AM.. |
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December 08, 2008, 08:11 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kusasi 80 Undead Warlock Nordrassil Euro PvE Guild: Simia Infinata Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
Which spec dus the most damage??? lolz I kid. Thanks for this post it's a really nice, concise overview of varying specs and playstyles, I may well give most of them a try. In BC I raided as Felguard and I've become quite attached to him since then. So recently I've been running Felguard/Ruin and the other day I switched to Metamorphosis+Felguard but I'm not particularly happy with it so I may switch back but keep Demonic Pact for the raid utility. I really like your idea of Felguard+DT+Emberstorm! In BC I never touched 0/21/40. Not once. Ever. 1 button spam didn't appeal to me and I think because of that I've barely paid much attention to the new talents either. So I think this spec will be a good thing to try for me because it will allow me to keep my beloved Felguard whilst still dipping my toes in Fire. I'm only running heroics right now but will be starting Naxx with my guild in January. I'm also hoping by then to be hit capped untalented (it's possible without raid gear I've found). 2 questions I have are, what glyphs would be best for it? Immolate, Felgaurd and...Corruption? Or Curse of Agony? And secondly, in terms of spell rotations, will it still just be a matter of keeping up Curse of Agony, Corruption, Immolate and SB spam? Thanks again! |
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December 08, 2008, 08:49 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Sehv 80 Undead Warlock Kilrogg US PvE Guild: Psycho Beast Killers Talent Spec: 0/40/31 |
Re: Spec recommendations for all
@ Kusasi Glyphs are a hot topic for debate at the moment. If I am running with a pet, I will use one of my three for imp imp/felguard. The other goes to improved immolate because if you are not using backdraft or refreshing it before it fully ticks, it is by far the most significant (and reliable) dps increase. In the spec you discuss, the last is a choice between curse of agony or corruption. I started with corruption, but I found that the 1s global cooldown on a shadow bolt was less useful than i suspected. The only plus was that it would sometimes proc molten core. However, if you are not assigned for CoS, I would definitely recommend Curse of Agony over it. Especially for boss fights! Curse of Agony loses its usefulness on anything that dies within 20s. This has to do with the escalating damage and the time it takes for damage to be realized. However, the DPCT (damage per cast time) has great returns, especially when you consider that it procs molten core. With the glyph, you get 2 extra ticks (in 4s) which are creditted to the MIDDLE tick of your curse. What this means is that your average damage output for keeping Curse of Agony is the same, but you cast it less often. Yes your DPCT goes up while DPS stays the same. Let me explain. Every 24s, you gain 4s extra. This means with 6 casts, you saved yourself a free 7th Curse of Agony. This means every 6 times you cast (1s GCD), you freed up a GCD, meaning each Curse of Agony is shaved off of 1/6 of a second. Big whoop. Sounds small. But consider that with the haste I have, I 1/6 of a second is 1/11 of an incinerate cast. My incinerates averaged for 4400 damage (over 615 hits), so how does 400 damage sound to you? Compare to corruption glyph which WHEN it procced was a shadowbolt in 1s GCD. My shadowbolt average was 3300 damage. 1s is about 2450 damage in incinerate cast time, which means 1000 damage, but the proc is 2% of corruption ticks which is less than 1/5 in time (what it takes to level out with the 'damage' generated from the Curse of Agony glyph). Sorry my logic was a bit messy and my math was napkin. The short answer is Felguard, Immolate, and Curse of Agony unless no one else is doing CoS. Raid damage >>>>> Personal damage. And for your second question, with emberstorm you'll want to use incinerate as your filler (not SB). Right now in the spec you linked I can see why shadow bolt would be better, but for the one I listed that you are referring to, choose incinerate. This requires immolate up. On a long mob, Curse of Agony, then Corruption, Immolate, then Incinerate spam. Corruption first lets you time when to refresh your immolate based on your haste. You can watch your procs so you are using immolate with mc up and trinket procs (sundial is amazing). On short trash, skip the Curse of Agony and toss a corruption on the off tanked mob. Then immolate and incinerate spam. Or the better option is just rain of fire all over their faces, or if threat is an issue, toss a seed or two before rain of fire spamming. AoE is a whole 'nother ball game of maximizing the dps that shows up on a meter. It's not true dps, it's just who gets logged. But then again, what trash isn't 
Last edited by Sevlana; December 08, 2008 at 08:52 AM.. |
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