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The Warlocks Den - WoW Warlock Discussions » Discussion Forums » Spells, Talents and DPS Discussion » Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock?

Spells, Talents and DPS Discussion DoT's and Curses and Nukes, oh my! Discussion threads on everything relating to the Warlocks Spells, Talents and DPS.

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August 15, 2008, 12:11 AM

#11 (permalink)

Dunwich

Character Info
Dunwich
80 Undead Warlock
Drenden US PvE
Guild: Kitten Soup

Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malevevely

Maiden isn't particularly difficult to keep a pet up in due to Shadowpriests and shaman healers but there are some later game fights where it is nearly impossible to keep your pet up. Saccing is something that should only be a last resort as a demo lock micro managing will get you more dps in the long run. Even on aoe pulls the felguard's cleave is a mean addition especially along with the bonus damage etc from having a pet alive.

If the healers will bother with a pet...often they do not. As for the AOE pulls I was thinking of, I had Hyjal in mind. Felguard saccing is a great move on those waves of mobs. Cleave is great, but not if the raid is using other forms of CC as cleave can sometimes break them. Don't get me wrong, I raid with Felguard, but when he's not the best choice, or if he's even a questionable choice, I move to something else. Don't limit yourself and don't always consider DPS as the only goal. You get a lot further with a raid team that works together and sometimes that means giving up DPS for other requirements (like dispelling Infernals in Mag). I honestly believe that the Demo lock is the absolute best for picking up those roles.

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August 15, 2008, 03:28 AM	#12 (permalink)
Malevevely Character Info Malevevely 70 Undead Warlock KJ US PvP	Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock? The point of a felguard spec is micro management, if you refuse to micro manage and use the spec to its fullest potential you would be a better contribution to your raid as another spec. DS/SnF would be an improvement if you are saccing or having trouble managing your pet while aff offers much more utility and is useful for the working together aspect. Essentially if you are not going to play demo with a pet and utilize the buffs that that gains you, then you would be a larger contributer as a different spec demo IS a high dps spec that is very pet reliant if you cannot manage/control (not cleaving sheep) your pet then another spec would be your best option. In saccing a demon you lose 12% of the demons stam+int in +damage, 5% of all damage caused, and the ~250 dps that the demon itself will offer on a debuffed mob. This is pretty much the upper half of the demo tree, you are better off with another spec if you can't control your demon.

August 15, 2008, 03:43 AM	#13 (permalink)
Vitriola Character Info Vitriola 80 Human Warlock gorgonash US PvP Guild: Knights of Avalon Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/41/30	Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock? Actually, I do not think it is best to sacrifice the demon girl except in a fight that has so much AE damage that you cannot keep her alive. Granted you get 15% damage bonus BUT, when you lose the pet you lose your pet buffs: Master demonologist and demonic knowledge. Those are at least as good as the sacrifice for damage alone. There are also the benefits of more mana and less damage taken (soul link) that only have when your pet is alive. IMHO

August 15, 2008, 01:12 PM

#14 (permalink)

Devicus

Character Info
Devicus
80 Gnome Warlock
thunderhorn Euro PvE
Guild: Rise
Profile: Blizzard Armory

Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thralock

Perhaps, try raiding with 21/40 for a few weeks and see how you go. You will find it alot easier, provides consistent contribution to the raid (from boss to boss) and gives you extra time to focus on the environment/boss. You will probably still be #1/2 in damage.

You're making gear based assumptions that aren't correct. Felguard will outdamage most specs until T6, meanwhile at the gear level dogwatch is at, affliction will at sit equal to destro at least, meaning destro isn't all that uber. However he'd likely be top 5 every fight rather than really variable.

September 11, 2008, 01:03 AM

#15 (permalink)

Thralock

Character Info
Thrale
70 Undead Warlock
Blackrock US PvP
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/21/40

Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock?

@Devicus, sorry if my post appeared that way, I wasn't suggesting that destro was more dps then FG.

Fact is that FG raid spec has the highest theorectical dps (until 4T6). The problem with FG raid spec is that if the pet dies, your dps suffers dramatically. Your pet may, or may not die, depending on RNG, raid makeup (spriest and number of resto shamans) and if you have VST & 2T5.

Yes at that gear level affliction will sit equal to destro, however Dogwatch was referring to people bugging him to spec "0/21/44" which I assume he meant 0/21/40. I was expressing an opinion to Dogwatch so that he could better understand why alot people have this opinion.

An analysis I had done with leuliers (theoretical - I was FG raid spec at the time with ~1180dmg,18%crit - OOM time of 5mins - so a 5min sustained view, utility curse only) had shown:
Talent Spec & number of targets (DPS Damage Delta to FG DPM) <Pet choices>
FG 7/43/11 x 3 target (1317.59 21.6% 55.06 <FG cleave>
UA 3 targets (1271.76 17.4% 54.74) <Phased imp>
FG 7/43/11 x 2 target (1213.11) 12.0% 50.69 <FG cleave>
FG 7/43/11 (1083.2) 0.0% 45.27 <FG cleave>
UA 2 targets (1081.82 -0.1% 46.56 <Phased imp>
0/21/40 Shad 3 targ (1016.88 -6.1% 42.49) <Suc Sac>
FG 7/43/11 (993.3 -8.3% 41.51) <FG no cleave>
0/40/21 Succ (966.6 -10.8% 40.39 <Succubus alive with soullink>
0/21/40 Shad 2 targ (954.77 -11.9% 39.9 <Suc Sac>
0/21/40 Fire (875.53 -19.2% 36.59) <Imp Sac>
0/21/40 Shad Corr/Imm (872.63 -19.4% 36.47) <Suc Sac>
UA (852.8 -21.3% 36.71) <Phased imp>
Affli/Ruin (813.3 -24.9% 35) <Phased imp>
21/0/40 (806.4 -25.6% 34.71) <Phased imp>
FG 7/43/11 (801.5 -26.0% 33.49) <Suc do nothing, soullinked>
FG 7/43/11 (778.1 -28.2% 32.53) <FG do nothing, soullinked>
FG 7/43/11 (763.3 -29.5% 31.9) <Suc do nothing, no soullink>
FG 7/43/11 (754.0 -30.4% 31.51) <Suc Sac>
FG 7/43/11 (749.0 -30.9% 31.3) <FG Sac>
FG 7/43/11 (708.2 -34.6% 29.59) <Imp do nothing, no SL>
FG 7/43/11 (701.6 -35.2% 29.32) <FH Sac>
FG 7/43/11 (670.5 -38.1% 28.02) <VW Sac>

Despite FG have a theoretical higher damage (0/21/40 being ~20%behind), in reality the pet management requirements mean that FG raid dps is much, much less then ideal. Having to sac a pet as FG, brings the damage ~30% behind assuming you're able to (i.e. FG didn't die and FD is off CD). i.e. there is a big reward for FG, but at a huge cost in managing a pet.

This management often affects dps output (particularly when learning new content) and might not be worth it over the long haul (i.e. 20+ raids). This is what I was hoping to point out. Hopefully the above table also answers Dogwatch's question on saccing a succubus as FG. Answer: it will be the low dps, but you COULD be 15% even lower!

@Dogwatch, Again I can only suggest, giving 0/21/40 a go for a few weeks to get a feel because if

Quote:

For those occasions I just sac my pet, then cast curse of elements on the boss and start nuking away. Seems to work good too, Often #1 or #2 on the charts in many boss fights.

Then you will be at least 10% better as 0/21/40 (or Affliction as Devicus points out). Question to ask yourself, is that 10% worth it? (It usually is for a serious raiding guild.)

September 11, 2008, 08:58 AM

#16 (permalink)

Barkle

Character Info
Barkle
80 Undead Warlock
Rexxar US PvE
Guild: Corpus Vile
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 0/41/30

Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock?

@Thralock

You are forgetting one key fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogwatch

I am currently running demon spec 6/45/10. I'm also very active doing arena

Sure, you can arena destro, and there has even been a good thread here lately on destro PvP misconceptions. But that is not based on the 0/21/40 raid build. 0/21/40 is a raid build, and is mostly useless in arena/PvP. I raided 0/21/40 for quite a while, and tried battlegrounds and arenas (not that I'm any good) and found it better to respec than try is destro.

September 11, 2008, 10:07 PM	#17 (permalink)
Thralock Character Info Thrale 70 Undead Warlock Blackrock US PvP Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock? I just respec for arena once per week. 100g is very easy to farm (One run of Isle dailies is enough). 0/21/40 is purely PVE - you cannot succeed in arena with it. You can farm as 0/21/40 easily enough (equip PVP gear massive stamina and sac VW (300+ health every 5s)). I understood that Dogwatch was getting pressure in PVE to respec, rather then arena. If Dogwatch doesn't care for respecing or is after an all in one spec, FG spec is the way to go. If Dogwatch wants that extra 10% damage in PVE (on pet unfriendly fights), then 0/21/40 (or UA Aff) is the way to go.

September 14, 2008, 10:34 AM	#18 (permalink)
Shades Character Info Poxes 80 Gnome Warlock Cho'gall US PvP Talent Spec: 0/20/51	Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock? Something that players are constantly forgetting about is that world of warcraft is in fact a GAME!. i know wierd ey? you don't have to respec if you don't want to. Dont be scared to give people the finger if their trying to force you into doing daily's everyday against your will just so you can pay your bills. So if you like the way a felguard looks standing beside you than that should be all that matters. Sorry for rambling but lately this issue has been a thorn in my side. As for sacrificing with full demonology: just having a succubus by your side gives you +10% damage bonus. Soul link adds an extra 5% (often overlooked). Finally you get a percentge of your summoned demons stats in spell damage (about 100 as far as i know). SO, correct me if im wrong but sacrifice is only for the Demon/Destro raiding build because your demons presence gives you more damage. If your demon is being a nuisance because you cant be bothered to keep an eye on him (Completely acceptable as far as i am concerned) that just either keep him by your side and hope nobody cares or be creative and do soemething like charge it into the mobs and tell him to do nothing so it looks like your fighting Apologies if i have repeated something already said I would highly appreciate any corrections Cheers

September 14, 2008, 10:33 PM	#19 (permalink)
Thralock Character Info Thrale 70 Undead Warlock Blackrock US PvP Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: Saccing the Succubus as a demon lock? @Shades, yes it is a game but remember there are players behind it. I suppose there are different types of players in games: 1) casuals and 2) hardcore. Casuals love the look of their FG, have vanity pets and the like. Hardcore want to progress raids, optimising every facet of their character, model their character in spreadsheets, model raid makeup in spreadsheets etc. The game of course can tailor to both, but the interaction between the two camps is where the player conflict occurs. Hardcores want casuals to go respec; casuals want to show hardcores how cute their vanity pet is. It is often the interaction of hardcores and casuals that cause guilds to breakdown etc. Hardcores will point out that your succubus won't survive the first minute of the Alar boss encounter. These flavour of players are the people whom Dogwatch encountered causing the questions.

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