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Spells, Talents and DPS Discussion DoT's and Curses and Nukes, oh my! Discussion threads on everything relating to the Warlocks Spells, Talents and DPS.

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December 15, 2008, 03:31 AM	#11 (permalink)
Snowhawk Character Info Typecast 70 Human Warlock Proudmoore US PvE Guild: Ruined Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/2/15	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? I really dont like the concept of stacking the DoT period. As already suggested, all a lock would do in pvp and pve is throw all the instants up 5-10 times then hide. I originally believed a better solution was to normalize the DoT periods, but the more I've been playing my DK, the more I've realized how much I hate normalized rotations and the more I've enjoyed the current affliction rotation. With an understanding of blizzards philosophy at the moment to appeasing the casual crowds tho, I would expect a normalized rotation to be an upcoming change but I doubt they would provide us any stacking DoTs.

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December 15, 2008, 04:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
Vapix	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? Zragoll, Snowhawk Please re-read the suggestion. I hope you've just misunderstood it. The suggestion is to allow one (1) early cast per warlock dot, each limited to being cast some way into the current dot's duration. This suggeston has come up at least four times in the OF's. This is the only time people have decided to interpret it as either of: You can stack each dot as many times as you like then run away The game will cast each dot over and over regardless of what the player does Nobody has ever suggested either of these because they are both obviously crazy. Last edited by Vapix; December 15, 2008 at 04:05 AM..

December 15, 2008, 04:40 AM

#13 (permalink)

Snowhawk

Character Info
Typecast
70 Human Warlock
Proudmoore US PvE
Guild: Ruined
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 54/2/15

Re: Dot Rotation Fix?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapix

Zragoll, Snowhawk Please re-read the suggestion. I hope you've just misunderstood it.

The suggestion is to allow one (1) early cast per warlock dot, each limited to being cast some way into the current dot's duration.

This suggeston has come up at least four times in the OF's. This is the only time people have decided to interpret it as either of:

You can stack each dot as many times as you like then run away
The game will cast each dot over and over regardless of what the player does

Nobody has ever suggested either of these because they are both obviously crazy.

I read the OP correctly the first time.

Quote:

This would not stack the damage, but instead the timers so no clipping would occur. Basically what would happen is when you apply a dot for the second time the new dot would not start till the old one ended its run.

Consider allowing the caster to queue up each DoT once. You throw up one rotation, then you throw up another rotation (excluding haunt/corr as haunt will overwrite itself and also refresh corr). Then you spam your filler or afk for 30s. The rotation still requires haunt to be refreshed during the filler and would now require queue tracking. Take Vapix' stance where the caster is allowed to queue up only one DoT. You still run into the problems of staggering rotations and now you have to watch the queue timer to make sure that the queue is empty before the next DoT falls off. If a spell is queued and a DoT other than that replaced DoT falls, you again fail at solving the efficiency problem with queuing. For both scenarios, what happens if the boss has some mechanic that makes it damage immune for some period (like Najentus)? How do we handle queueing when two targets have to die at the same time? Over the course of a long fight (or pretty much any boss fight), DoTs will eventually sync up to the point where you cannot avoid the dead periods, how will queuing address this? How about UA stacking in PvP (keep UA on the target at all times and UA queued at all times)? How are queued DoTs affected by buffs/debuffs? We still haven't discussed queue management/clearing, non-damaging curses, multi-target queuing, and implementation complexity. I just don't see how this would ever work better than the current system.

Afflicitions current rotation is neither simple nor difficult, but this recommendation just compounds the problem, requiring the caster to not only manage cast times, but now manage "queued" DoTs. The goal GC made in his post about possible changes for the affliction rotation was to simplify the rotation, hence the suggestion to normalize DoT periods I made above (which would fix the "clipping" issue the OP had suggested and simplify rotations for warlocks). We will never be 100% efficient.

Simply put, Wrath is about abundance and simplicity.

Last edited by Snowhawk; December 15, 2008 at 05:30 AM.. Reason: Clarifying my argument.

December 15, 2008, 05:11 AM	#14 (permalink)
Vapix	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? You win Snowhawk. I will not return to this thread, nor will I participate in any other discussions intended to explore improvements to the class. I did make the attempt though, so I think I deserve a parting comment: if every suggestion for improvement is greeted with "it's OP" or "if I can't understand it, it must be bad", or "I won't give up anything, no matter what I gain elsewhere", most good suggestions are going to be rejected.

December 15, 2008, 05:46 AM

#15 (permalink)

Snowhawk

Character Info
Typecast
70 Human Warlock
Proudmoore US PvE
Guild: Ruined
Profile: Blizzard Armory
Talent Spec: 54/2/15

Re: Dot Rotation Fix?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapix

You win Snowhawk. I will not return to this thread, nor will I participate in any other discussions intended to explore improvements to the class.

This wasn't a pissing contest, but more of a "there is a bigger picture that needs to be addressed" counterargument. Personally I like the current playstyle of affliction. I know others that want to see it simplified and I know others, like yourself, that want to see it expanded. Ideas and suggestions will be torn and tested to see if they are a better alternative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vapix

if every suggestion for improvement is greeted with "it's OP" or "if I can't understand it, it must be bad", or "I won't give up anything, no matter what I gain elsewhere", most good suggestions are going to be rejected.

I've made arguments for aspects of the warlock class to be changed, and I've even considered those changes to be OP. My counterargument wasn't simply "its OP" or "its bad", but that it is not practical. I was not trying to attack you but I was attacking your idea. If you can address some of the problems I mentioned above and can address other ideas I or the other people could come up with, then yes, implement it. I've played through BC's destro and I've played what would be the equivalent of a normalized rotation (see DK's). Neither I really enjoyed. However the current system I'm liking and if we can improve the class by adding a rotation, then do it. But it has to make sense to make the change before anything gets added.

December 15, 2008, 11:02 AM	#16 (permalink)
Pernicious Status: <Demon Trainer> Character Info Pernicious 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dark Iron US PvP Guild: Allmacht Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? I have been watching this thread with interest. One thing I love is seeing the various ideas you guys come up with, even if they don't make it into the game or are ever even considered. This thread is becoming a little too heated. I ask that everyone remember that creative idea threads like this are all about asking "what if" with regards to an issue one ore more people seem to be having. That said, counter arguments are also welcome as they point out another side of the idea that the OP may not have thought of. If Blizzard ever did read these threads and consider the ideas, you better believe they'll look at it from every point of view. So please do not shoot any ideas down, offer criticism. And do not take any criticism against your ideas personally. That said, takes his moderator hat off what if this idea made use of "Amplify Curse"? Previously, Amplify Curse could be cast (independent of GCD) to increase the damage of select curses. It since has been retooled to offer a smaller GCD on Affliction Spells. But what if Amplify Curse allowed you to tack on an extended duration as the OP is suggesting? It would give us greater control over using it on fights that we know are strait shoot DPS battles, while also limiting it on fights where DPS needs to be halted. As Amp. Curse would have a cooldown, it would also require thought as to when it would best be implemented. Just a thought. __________________ When in doubt, read the Forum Rules Like what you see? Support the Den Exploring The Depths of the Den Last edited by Pernicious; December 15, 2008 at 11:08 AM.. Reason: Typo, where for art thou typo?

December 15, 2008, 12:05 PM	#17 (permalink)
Zardie Character Info Zardie 80 Gnome Warlock Anvilmar US PvE Guild: Reverb Talent Spec: 54/0/17	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? I dont feel affliction rotations are that hard and wouldnt like a change such as queing DoTs making all dots have the same duaration would be better

December 15, 2008, 12:14 PM	#18 (permalink)
Snowhawk Character Info Typecast 70 Human Warlock Proudmoore US PvE Guild: Ruined Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 54/2/15	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? Extending the usage of Amp Curse similar to that of the Curse of Agony glyph is interesting. You could selectively rotate DoTs and extend them to provide a buffer to cast another DoT, with the new filler tick(s) being treated as an average tick. Branching off of Pernicious, another route may even be giving the DoT some haste buff where the overall time between dots is shortened through amp curse. The cast time of the application would remain unchanged and only applicable to a single affliction DoT. I suppose while we are on the subject of fixing the rotation, I wouldn't mind seeing affliction spells take more after haunt. As long as the DoT being casted is on the target, the next tick is applied and the timer resets. Doesn't really simplify the rotation, but does make it more efficient as we can refresh the DoT as its about to fall off and not worry about losing that last tick. Other issues that may come from this is timing the reapplication to hit immediately after the 2nd to last tick (getting a double tick), implementing with the current damage buff system (assuming the introduction of haunt would make this moot), and how deep would we need to go to spec into this (if speccable). I'm sure there are other issues with this as I kinda just came off the cuff with it. Some more ideas to fool around with. Last edited by Snowhawk; December 15, 2008 at 12:16 PM..

December 15, 2008, 02:12 PM	#19 (permalink)
Devicus Character Info Devicus 80 Gnome Warlock thunderhorn Euro PvE Guild: Rise Profile: Blizzard Armory	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? Affliction rotations will always have dead space. There will be DPS loss on almost any fight and due to uneven timers, even a perfect fight will occur them eventually. When it comes down to it there's 2 broad solutions to it. 1) Balance it knowing that it is weak in certain areas and will always underperform versus it's theoretical damage (it's very hard to screw the old destro rotation of shadowbolt spam up, for example) and cannot burst (fails at stop start fights and trash) and balance it accordinly (so it's OP on paper). 2) reduce these issues. What this thread entails is option 2). However I just feel it's worth considering #1 for context, something blizzard have done to some extent but obviously feel still isn't quite right. If blizzard wish to follow 2 as well/instead, then they seem to be looking at either, more concurrent timers (will still require an element of 1, though this element may exist to a large enough extent already) or knocking spells out. Which they cannot do by directly nerfing the spells, because the 2 spells in the firing line are both staples of warlocks outside the context in which these issues occur. I'm more curious as to how they could discourage these spells really. Aside from offering buffs if they aren't up I can't think how. As a side note, I enjoy affliction, I'm a reasonable player, not a great one and know other players probably could get more DPS from my character. However I'd still be happy with option 1 if they pursued that futher :P I guess I'd be happy with 2 as well though. I don't fully appreciate fights when I'm not concentrating on the screen as much as the timers.

December 15, 2008, 07:20 PM	#20 (permalink)
Läsher Character Info Deathlasher 80 Human Warlock Madoran US PvE Guild: W A R Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/14/54	Re: Dot Rotation Fix? Just to be more clear I was thinking along the lines of the dot only stacking once not 10 times which would be overkill for sure. My main thought is that it would put an end to clipping your dots early like Curse of Agony that needs to run its course for its backloaded damage. It would also allow for more Shadow Bolts if you proc. without worrying about a Dot running out on you and wasting that proc. Im sure its not a perfect solution but I think it would help get us back on the same page with our DPS seeing as all the new burst classes are really killing us atm. Lasher

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