| Spells, Talents and DPS Discussion DoT's and Curses and Nukes, oh my! Discussion threads on everything relating to the Warlocks Spells, Talents and DPS. |
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May 18, 2009, 12:52 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
Hi all, Want to try and get a blue response to a post that's near & dear to the warlock community (at least the PvE contingent). If you have some suggestions, please write them in. Let's try and keep it with as little QQ as possible to try and get some blue. World of Warcraft - English (NA) Forums - Question about Warlock Threat Mechanics ------------------------ Firstly : this is not intended to be a QQ thread, there are a few questions that I believe are important to the class that I would like to see addressed, namely : do developers see Warlock aggro as an issue that needs to be resolved? What are the thoughts on how to do that and how can the Warlock community help to shape those decisions? One common and passionately discussed issue that I run across in Warlock sites is the comparably poor threat management abilities of Warlocks in comparison to other classes. Compare aggro management abilities: - Fade : Fade out, temporarily reducing all your threat for 10 sec. (30 sec CD) - Ice Block : Immune to all attacks and spells. Cannot attack, move or use spells. (5 min CD) - Invisibility : Fades the caster to invisibility over 3 sec, reducing threat each second. (3 min CD) - Tricks of the Trade : The threat caused by your next damaging attack and all actions taken for 6 sec afterwards will be transferred to the target. (30 sec CD) - Feint : Performs a feint, causing no damage but lowering your threat by a large amount, making the enemy less likely to attack you. In addition, reduces the damage you take from area of effect attacks by 50% for 6 sec. (10 sec CD) - Vanish : Allows the rogue to vanish from sight, entering an improved stealth mode for 10 sec. Also breaks movement impairing effects. (3 min CD) - Feign Death : Feign death which may trick enemies into ignoring you. (30 sec CD) - Misdirection : Threat caused by your next 3 attacks is redirected to the target raid member. (30 sec CD) - Cower : Cower, causing no damage but lowering your threat a large amount, making the enemy less likely to attack you. (10 sec CD) Warlock: - Soulshatter : Reduces threat by 50% for all enemies within 50 yards. (5 min CD) Warlock Aggro dump abilities not only have a longer CD than any other class (save Ice Block), but also dump less threat than any other class and have no additional benefits such as damage reduction (and have a reagent cost to boot). Compare also Warlocks threat reducing talents to that of other classes: - Subtlety : Reduces the threat generated by your restoration spells by 20% and reduces the chance your helpful spells, Moonfire, and Insect Swarm will be dispelled by 20%. - Nature's Reach : Increases the range of your Balance spells and Faerie Fire (Feral) ability by 20%, and reduces the threat generated by your Balance spells by 30%. - Arcane Subtlety : Reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by 30% and reduces the threat caused by your Arcane spells by 40%. - Fanaticism : Increases the critical strike chance of all Judgements capable of a critical hit by 18% and reduces threat caused by all actions by 30% except when under the effects of Righteous Fury. - Shadow Affinity : Reduces the threat generated by your Shadow spells by 25%, and you receive 15% of your base mana when your Shadow Word: Pain or Vampiric Touch spells are dispelled. - Elemental Precision : Increases your chance to hit with Fire, Frost and Nature spells by 3% and reduces the threat caused by Fire, Frost and Nature spells by 30%. Warlock: Destructive Reach : Increases the range of your Destruction spells by 20% and reduces threat caused by Destruction spells by 10%. Improved Drain Soul : Returns 15% of your maximum mana if the target is killed by you while you drain its soul. In addition, your Affliction spells generate 10% less threat. Again, Warlock threat reduction talents are comparatively poor compared to other classes (I understand that Fire/Frost mages have equally low threat mitigation talents, but they also have better threat dumps). Warlocks (esp Affliction spec who heavily use both Affliction and Destruction spells) would have to spend 4 points to get the benefit of many 3/2 point talents other classes have to get even the most modest threat reduction. The implication of all the above is that Warlocks are threat magnets. With our DoTs constantly ticking away, we build steady, relatively uninterruptible aggro and have high burst potential to boot. I am almost always second on the threat list by a large margin and when I run with other locks, inevitably they’re neck and neck with me. With certain fights (Maly, Heigan, for example) we have to burn our soulshatter early and within minutes we’re right back on top with no chance of dropping threat. The consensus on the Warlock boards that I’ve visited is that at minimum a reduced cooldown is necessary. There are some more creative thoughts on how to change Warlock threat dumps such as SS instantly removing all DoTs from the target or a phase ability similar to the imp phase that would make Warlocks immune to damage over a short period. Looking forward to some productive discussion on this topic. |
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May 19, 2009, 08:38 AM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Liche 80 Undead Warlock Sporeggar Euro RP PvP Guild: Blackout Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
Good post, was amazed at the low level of understanding already shown in the official thread tho :( The issue that needs to be addressed is: Is warlock threat management on par with other classes? assuming damage output is meant to be the same across all dps classes and 5% more than hybrid dps specs, are the warlock threat dumps relatively equal to these other classes? Blizzard designs encounters to be challenging, requiring players to manage a number of variables, one of which is threat. Managing threat is part of the game, and knowing how to effective manage it is a skill valuable to both you and the raid. the problem? it appears that our ability to manage threat is weaker than other classes, not only that, but the 5min cd on only one threat dump ability means that encounter with multiple mobs/bosses means that an early accidental aggro which requires a SS may mean throttling dps later in the fight whereas othe classes might not have this problem. Why havent blizz already addressed this? Threat really hasn't been an issue until ulduar and even here its only an issue in pugs and guild with poor tanks, thus, it hasnt NEEDED to be addressed, however this may change with future content. |
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May 19, 2009, 08:44 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Narxuthael 80 Undead Warlock Frostmourne Oceania PvP Guild: The Cheesemongers Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 56/0/15 |
Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
I agree wholeheartedly. I am finding that Improved Drain Soul is barely enough on some tanks. I actually require the metagem for the extra 2% threat reduction and even then I don't know how well that's going to work. I say some tanks though. I have found that Warrior tanks can far outpace me for tps. Similarly geared DKs, Pallys and Bears I find iffy sometimes depending on the fight. Let's hope Blizz respond positively.
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I've seen porn cleaner than that! |
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May 19, 2009, 08:49 AM
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#4 (permalink) |
Status: Darkbinder
Character Info
Aily 80 Human Warlock Doomhammer US PvE Guild: Arisen Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 53/1/17 |
Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
Got my post up there |
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May 19, 2009, 09:45 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
aggro dumping wise: having a lowish druid ( 75 if I recall correctly ). I would say cower to be utterly useless. Mage one is situational I found since it's 3 seconds, it's good but if you have pulsing AOE damage you're screwed over, certainly it's better then what The Burning Crusade gave us ( 5 seconds ). i can't speak for hunters since mine is still 70. the only thing I can point out is FD used to ( and may still be ) based off spell hit... most hunters will only ever have 9% hit ( or was it 8 ) and so FD has a higher potential to resist. moot point if they changed the mechanic threat reducing talents: personally I'm not sure why you included a healing class in there, all healers has high threat reducing talents... some of us take, some of us don't but w/e most melee have a high 30% reduction because they are melee, caster has a buffer of 30% since we're standing 40yards away. For other casters I find it odd that there's inconsistency but I don' pertain to know the ins and out of every caster in the game, certainly for ele shammy I think 30% is not needed and 10% to 20% is fine, but i'm only a part time ele, my primary role is healing conclusion with all this said, regarding aggro dump SS, I would support a reduction in CD to say 2 to 3min, i think that's pretty reasonable regarding threat reduction talents... I largely can't see a problem with that destruction warlocks are now more or less reliant on destruction spells, meta warlocks are the same and largely reliant on destruction spells and their pets which are for all intents and purposes threatless. the only thing I can see a problem is with affliction which uses both affliction spells and destruction spells Last edited by Coud; May 19, 2009 at 09:49 AM.. Reason: spelling etc |
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May 19, 2009, 10:38 AM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
The big issue for me with threat is that it can't be 'working as intended' and yet doesn't seem to be an issue for developers. Blizzard has said that they didn't like the way that threat worked in BC (tanks staring at Omen) and explicitly made Wrath of the Lich King so that threat wasn't the major issue it was before. All tanking classes now have some sort of AoE threat and a few have salv-like threat sponges. I have a warrior tank myself, and threat management is no where near as hard as it was in BC. Yet still, warlocks suffer threat issues. I would love it - like an AA first step - if devs just came out and said 'yes, somethings wrong'. There's a lot of simple fixes and even some imaginative ones. |
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May 19, 2009, 10:53 AM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
I moved to a lock from a hunter main. I used to play an pally and a shaman as healers tanks and melee dps. So I've seen threat from alot of angles now. Really all classes I've had issues at initial engagement, and during threat drops. Though in Wrath of the Lich King it is nowhere near the issue that The Burning Crusade was. My friend is one of the MT's for our guild, and honestly, if he's trying on threat, I can't catch him after about 1min into a fight outside of oddball buffs like Sparks or Runes in Uld, or the shadow crash areas in Vezax. Another thing when comparing threat redux affects: Melee has an inherently lower ceiling. So their 30% lower compensates for a ceiling that starts 20% sooner. I've never done the math, but just eyeballing it, it's pretty close to the 10% range reduction. So this post wanders a bit, but I've been up since too early, feel free to point out mistakes I make. Edit notes: Also damnit, took too long to type and others covered this. RE Hunters: FD is now based on melee hit, and with the Hit = melee and spell it's a non issue outside of some fights where FD flag is disabled. Hunters also have no built-in threat reduction in talents or as part of the class, so you can rack up threat quickly. |
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May 19, 2009, 10:56 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
I thought the reason we were behind in threat reduction was because our pets do a percentage of our damage. That threat doesn't show up as ours on the meters whereas 100% of mage damage is attributed to the mage. |
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May 19, 2009, 11:06 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
if you're afflic or destruction I doubt 50% of your attack will come from pet or even 30%, that's more meta playstyle realistically i think it's somewhere around 10% and I don't think it's a good reason to hold back SS based on that. |
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May 19, 2009, 11:30 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Keldion 80 Blood Elf Warlock Moon Guard US RP Guild: Rotten Luck Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/13/55 |
Re: Post your thoughts & suggestions to threat topic on official forums
Soulshatter is tricky to use when one considers the fact that warlocks have a harder time than other classes of stopping their DPS entirely. Affliction, I see you raising your hand. I've found that the best way of approaching its use is that while it is available, your "actual" threat scales up at 50% the normal rate. Of course, for all intents and purposes, it will still count as pre-Shatter levels for determining if you pull aggro off the tank. Once it's on CD, we're putting out full threat. Say a warlock, let's call him Jason, deals 1000 dps for 3 minutes with no kind of aggro reduction. That's 60k threat each minute, for a total of 180k threat. If he hits Shatter at the 3 minute mark, the threat cuts in half to 90k. Jason continues to fight for 3 more minutes, doing the same DPS. He now has (90 + 180k) = 270k. Over the course of 6 minutes, Jason has only cut the overall threat by 25%. Jason's threat if he shattered at minute 1: (60 / 2) + 300 = 330k [8.33% reduction] Jason's threat if he shattered at minute 5: (300 / 2) + 60 = 210k [41.66% reduction] Where am I going with this, you might ask? My point, and perhaps OP's, is that warlocks have to work harder at their threat management and must face a greater risk for a long term benefit. We are forced to save our CD to the last possible moment. Is this just a consequence of our class style? EDIT: Once I can actually log onto the Blizz forums, I will repost the above to Fiz's thread. Last edited by Keldion; May 19, 2009 at 11:37 AM.. |
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