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August 30, 2009, 08:42 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Elricc 80 Human Warlock Nagrand Oceania PvE Guild: The Silver Hand Talent Spec: Destro |
Damage Meter confusion
First let me say that I use recount damage meter only as a tool to gauge my own performance. I DONOT link it in raids & have only very rarely /whispered the results to a party/raid member & then only to show them that they are doing well. I have been on top of the damage done & DPS readings & toward the bottom (Usually in a group with obviously much better geared members) at times. I was looking at recount on a raid & saw that during the raid I was 10 on DPS but 3 on damage done. This was over all the raid but checking after each boss fight on the boss alone the readings were about the same. At the end of the raid I was 9 on DPS but 2 on damage done. Another warlock in the same raid (about 50 points better geared according to wowheroes than me) was 11 on DPS & 5 on damage done. Has anyone seen this difference in results or is it a recount thing? A little background on what made me notice what I want to ask about:- I joined a Naxx 25 the other night that had killed 3 bosses (Patch,Grob. & Gluth) & went to Thadius & first pull got "tank" thrown & wiped the raid- the raid leader had put me (the PUG) with an undergeared Druid tank & even though I had a "miss" on Immolate & had to reapply it-after conflag. didn't work twice-I flew past the tank in a trice & shattered but it wasn't enough  . After that I was moved to the side with the better tank (A guildie who had been in that guild but was now from the raiding guild my warrior is in so we know each other) & had no problem. I always start a little slow on DPS until I know how the tank will go & I did wait some before I started on dots this time.
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If you ask a question that you don't want an answer to. Expect an answer you don't want to hear. |
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August 30, 2009, 10:45 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Re: Damage Meter confusion
In my mind, overall damage has to do with avoiding incoming damage and staying consistent over the duration of a fight, not spiking the meters and dying. |
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August 31, 2009, 12:17 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Meankeb 80 Human Warlock Khaz Modan US PvE Guild: Virtue Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
1) I often see my DPS come in about 300 less using recount compared to the rest of the damage pack. /shrug 2) I'm getting sick of the built in threat generation without sufficient mitigation. Hunters are working my butt lately, as they never have to slow down. Only people that seem to like me are the warrior tanks, as I'm always the Vigilance target. /sigh. |
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August 31, 2009, 02:18 AM
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#4 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Elricc 80 Human Warlock Nagrand Oceania PvE Guild: The Silver Hand Talent Spec: Destro |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
Quote:
What I meant in starting the thread however was being high on damage done but very low on DPS at the same time. I was just watching DPS page on recount & would see my name lower down on the DPS chart (around 7-10 in a 25 man raid or 3-4 in a 10 man) & I was wondering where I was going wrong. I happened to change pages while looking for something & found the damage done page & saw that I was quite high on that page & it made me wonder how I could be at the bottom of the DPS chart but at the same time be so far up in the damage done chart-If your doing low DPS then you shouldn't be doing much damage. I thought it might just because there was so much AoE damage from RoF where a warrior for instance only has cleave etc that hits 3 targets instead of RoF which hits all targets in the area- if there are a group of 10 then they all get hit where on the same group a warrior can only hit 3 at a time (cleave) unless he uses thunder clap which is on a cool down. This is not the case because I get the same readings from boss fights as in AoE fights.
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If you ask a question that you don't want an answer to. Expect an answer you don't want to hear. |
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August 31, 2009, 02:32 AM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Maurice 80 Gnome Warlock Burning Legion US PvP Guild: Infamous Mob Profile: Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
Yes this happens all the time. I have a post about it in the obessesed with dps thread. Basically here is how it works as another poster said: You stayed alive. Also dps is great, I know a DK that can easily spike 7k dps where I ride 4k dps because of threat/etc. The dk also pulls off the tank in doing this and dies. The end result is he is high on the dps chart but low in overal damage. Low Dps/High Overall almost always means you did consistent dps through the entire fight and lived through the fight. The AoE is a smaller factor, but also included. Clearing a lot of trash with AoE means a lot of damage done, but for a warlock often lower dps compared to others. |
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August 31, 2009, 01:12 PM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Debuff 80 Orc Warlock Sargeras US PvP Guild: Fenrir Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
The reason for the inconsistency is because of the way that recount tries to be smart about calculating the time you spent dpsing. Imagine this: An imaginary boss that spends 50% of it's time up in the air unhittable. For a rogue, they can only spend 50% of the fight damaging the boss (with the exception of having a bleed up on the boss for a portion of the unhittable phase). An affliction lock or a shadow priest, though, might have just renewed a dot before the boss went up in the air and thus will continue to damage the boss for ~30 while the rogue can't. During the fight, if recount sees that a player hasn't dealt any damage in a while (5 seconds?) it will stop counting that time against them. So if a rogue does 5k dps while the boss is down and 0 damage while the boss is up then recount will display their dps as 5k. However an affliction lock might do 5k dps while the boss is down but have a single dot up on the boss for the other parts of the phase that might be doing 800 dps. Recount will still count this as dps time and so your average dps for the entire fight will be significantly lower than the rogue, even though you did more damage than he did. |
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August 31, 2009, 08:18 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Re: Damage Meter confusion
that sucks. timer should start from when the mob is engaged to when it dies..... anyway, its damage done thats the important one as its taking off HP that takes the mob down. Saying this i like to compare my dps on bosses like patchwork as thats just a straight tank and spank then compare gear to see how your dps for your gear is compared to others of better/worse gear. i routinely out dps and damage a paladin that is a full 100 points more than me on wow heros :-) we spent the evening wiping on yogg saron tonight, there was a dk that was doing a consistant dps and damage compared to others which enabled me to try different things to try to increase my dps and damage through the various tries. Ade |
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September 01, 2009, 12:34 AM
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#8 (permalink) | |
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Character Info
Elricc 80 Human Warlock Nagrand Oceania PvE Guild: The Silver Hand Talent Spec: Destro |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
Thanks to all replies & Especially Debuff. I thought this might be the way it worked.  Quote:
__________________
If you ask a question that you don't want an answer to. Expect an answer you don't want to hear. |
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September 01, 2009, 12:51 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Re: Damage Meter confusion
Unfortunately people are trained to care about DPS but this puts damage meter authors in a bad spot. The argument is as old as the very first damage meters, stuff like Recap. The problem is this: WoW does not offer a normed combat time. In addition being "in combat" is not a really reliable measure. Most of us have been stuck in combat longer than desirable, sometimes much longer. Because there is no normed "per second" in WoW, the DPS formulas are be necessity arbitrary and weak measures. One can play indefinite games with them and some formulas will favor classes with bursty damage (sharp cuttoffs in combat times), some will favor those with sustained damage (soft cuttoffs in combat), some will favor raw damage (which usually leads to healers to top meters!), some will not count misses, some do. The true answer has been for years: Do not consider DPS an important stat! Total damage done is what matters in raid. In more than one way, because if you do great DPS but die early, you hurt your raid more than having somewhat lower DPS but sticking around. Finally if DPS was boss fight combat time, it would lose all independent value. It would just be Total Damage Done/Constant where that constant is the same for everybody. If that is DPS then we don't need DPS as measure at all because it is synonymous to Total Damage Done. Rather in most damage meters DPS gives a sense of activity vs total time done. This measure is in all damage meters vague, but it has more information than just total damage. DPS is usually consistent within one class/build. I.e if you want to improve your damage dealing and you see your DPS going up on average it does indeed mean that you do better. Comparing between classes/builds is tricky because as said the measure is tricky. In that case you really should worry about Total Damage Done. As a final note: as a maintainer of a popular damage meter, I spend about 80% of my maintenance time trying to cope with anxieties over DPS, which is a shame really, because there is no fix for it except to hope that people learn to not take it so darn seriously. |
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5 members liked this post. 0 members didn't.
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September 01, 2009, 02:05 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Satalitetv 80 Blood Elf Warlock Ravencrest US PvE Guild: Relic Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 3/15/54 |
Re: Damage Meter confusion
Elsia and Debuff, great explanations. I'll add to it that there's nothing wrong with using the dps as a way to compare to yourself (from a previous time you fought that boss) and another person of the same class and specc. You just can't expect to have the same dps every boss, since the ways and times you get to hit them differ. What you can do is remember your dps for that one boss during multiple weeks and seeing if you can get it up. That is, if the first week you do 6k dps on XT, then the next week you do 6.2k dps, you did something better that time -- or you were luckier with rng and how many gravity bombs you had... but that's beyond the point. |
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