| Spells, Talents and DPS Discussion DoT's and Curses and Nukes, oh my! Discussion threads on everything relating to the Warlocks Spells, Talents and DPS. |
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October 22, 2009, 04:37 PM
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#1 (permalink) |
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Where do our talent trees go from here?
Fiz suggested starting a new thread, and I can't say I disagree. I'm going to try to be brief: As of right now (3.2.2): FACTS: All PVE Raiding builds must take the talents Ruin and Bane. All PVP builds must take the talent Soul Link. All Demonology-based PVE builds (as if there's a demonology PVP build) must branch into destruction with whatever points are left. There are no viable PVE Affliction/Demonology builds for anything beyond farming. How would we fix this? Or is this fine? |
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October 22, 2009, 05:06 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Fizzik 80 Blood Elf Warlock Dunemaul US PvP Guild: Ghosts of Damnation Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/13/58 |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
It's a bit lazy, but I'm posting my post from the previous thread to start the discussion: Your point about each tree having it's own identity is totally on target. The fact that Demo seems like something in between specs rather than it's own fully realized playstyle is a design issue. I get that Afflic is shadow & curse and I get that Destro is fire & burst, but what is Demo? I would think that it would be all about pets and summoning, but it doesn't look that way. A better talent than Meta might have been some sort of 'Army of the Dead' type of talent. As it is, it sits oddly with the spirit of the tree. Just as there should be more definition to some trees, there should be more flexibility between trees. The fact that every PvE build needs to take 15 points in Destro to get Ruin tells me that it should be either lower in the tree or just a talent you get when you hit 80. A good example of flexibility (my class experience is rather limited, so maybe there are better) is Protection Warriors. While there is only one viable tanking tree, you can take talents in Arms to increase your threat (Deep Wounds) or talents in Fury to increase your survivability (Improved Demo Shout, Command Presence). Although that particular formula sounds totally backwards, it still gives you flexibility in talents and that flexibility will translate into a different play experience. |
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October 22, 2009, 05:54 PM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Kaetral 70 Gnome Warlock Blackhand US PvE Guild: Righteous Divebombers Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 5/13/53 |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
I agree that ruin should be a trainer learned/passive spell/bonus. Blizzard had commented that they were going to get rid of passive/MUST HAVE talents with cataclysm, maybe this will be an example. If they stick with their goal, talent trees could be very interesting. I definitely have to give them credit for the viability of demo come next patch. I'm already testing it out to get use to it. Personally, I think a definite talent (similar to Shadow master in afflic, and Emberstorm in Destro.. and therefore similar position) would be an ability to have double pets. I.E. any pet you summon, you actually have two of the same type. Kinda similar to a mages Mirror Images. that or to increase a demons damage output to that of a BM hunter's pet. Personally, I think you'll see talents like these(SM and Emberstorm) become a passive skill you learn from the trainer, and we'll have more "cool" talents. |
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October 22, 2009, 08:24 PM
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#4 (permalink) | |
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Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
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October 22, 2009, 08:48 PM
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#5 (permalink) | |
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Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
I very much like the idea of being able to have two pets as the demonology tree's 51 pt talent. Unfortunately, I believe that Blizzard would never do this, mainly because the entire array of pets would need to be reshuffled and started afresh, mostly for PvP reasons. If I could have 2 felpuppies out, i.e. two spell interupts, an arena's team's healer would be spell-locked for more than enough time to down someone else. I think that if the tree ever become focused around demons like we want it be, it'll turn into more of a BM hunter's talent tree, as suggested by Kaero. When I started playing WoW, I played the demo tree to level. Not because I thought it was the "best" or anything like that, but because I thought it characterized the warlock class the most. I soon found out that it really didn't. Blizzard is modifying the felpuppy to enhance the affliction warlock's dps. Destro's pet currently enhances the destro warlock (with empowered imp). For demo, I'd like to see something similiar, just the other way around. For instance, each tick of corruption and immolate could have the possibility to increase the crit chance of my pet by 20%. Or my shadow bolt crits improve my felpuppy/succy while my incinerate crits improve my imp/felguard. Or something like that. Our current 51 point talent is completely fail and has nothing at all to do with our demons. If anything, I'd like to see meta as a sort of self-sacrifice spell, lower down the tree, that banishes ourselves, and super-powers our pet (with a cd, and all the appropriate math that goes along with that). When I play demo, I don't want to hit hard. But I want my felguard to hit like an angry warrior. Quote:
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October 22, 2009, 09:07 PM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Character Info
lilsteele 80 Human Warlock Terenas Euro PvE |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
I think it's overall ok, there are viable pure specs (specs that take the 51 point talent in some tree) and a few hybrids. Affliction and Destruction do nice dps, have a different playstyle and are fun. Demonology: The molten core redesign and the new decimation finisher leave some room for interestiing rotatoins. But still, the tree has no real identiy. The power the warlock draws from its pet is hidden in some stat increases and a buff that is OP and has strange mechanics at the same time. Demo uses dots, shadow spells, fire spells, anything. |
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October 22, 2009, 09:37 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
Status: Dot, 'Lock and Drop it!
Character Info
Cormanthor 80 Human Warlock Gnomeregan US PvE Guild: Knights who say Ni Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: Various |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
Here's a suggestion that might further the split in the trees: Affliction: All shadow damage and curses, right? How about the ability to toss a second curse on the target? Drop shadow bolt completely (crazy idea, I know) and use DL / DS as a filler at all health levels. Points-in-tree buff to get DoT haste and bonus shadow damage. Demonology: New talents to make your demon OP based on your spells. Make Incinerate / Shadowbolt place a debuff on the target that ups your demon's attack power. Make your Corruption act like Siphon Life for your demon. Make your demon > 50% of your total DPS. At the same time, make controlling the demon part of the bread and butter of a good Demo 'Lock. Points-in-tree buff to get bonus spellpower/attack power/aggro FOR YOUR DEMON. Destruction: Pretty good as it is. It's on focus to be a straight nuke 'em spec. Points-in-tree buff to get ruin & bonus to fire damage.
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Some days it just not worth chewing through the restraints |
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October 22, 2009, 09:51 PM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
I'm liking your ideas for affliction, Cormanthor. Shadow bolt has never felt very afflictionesque to me. The only problem with it is, once again, pvp-related. If so much of my damage comes from dots that hard-hitting spells like shadow bolt are no longer necessary, it becomes very easy to rack up damage in bgs just spamming everything. An easy way to fix this though would be to require a debuff spell on the 1 target that would increase dot power and be limited to one target at a time. Sort of like a super-haunt. We both agree on what should be done with demonology so I won't repeat anything more here. Destro is in a good spot right now. One thing I would like to see though is the ability to use shadow bolts in the rotation. Destro wasn't a straight-up fire spec before, and I'd like to see some synergy between shadow and fire in the school (sort of like what they're trying to do to demo). |
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October 23, 2009, 12:34 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Status: Dot, 'Lock and Drop it!
Character Info
Cormanthor 80 Human Warlock Gnomeregan US PvE Guild: Knights who say Ni Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: Various |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
As for affliction PvP, I'm not necessarily saying that DoTs will be so much more powerful. My suggestion is to make the Drain spells hit like a Shadow Bolt would. In fact, my recommendation (horrible as it may sound), is to get rid of the Shadow Bolt altogether. Make all drains tick every second, modified by haste. And have DL / DS do better than 1/3 SB damage per tick.
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Some days it just not worth chewing through the restraints |
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October 23, 2009, 01:25 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Character Info
Potsie 80 Human Warlock Daggerspine US PvP Profile: WoW Rankings Talent Spec: 54/17/0 |
Re: Where do our talent trees go from here?
Affliction: (Shadowbolt/Drain Soul replacement filler) Empower Dots: Channelled spell which lasts for five seconds and refreshs each damage-over-time effect on tick increasing all damage done by damage-over-time spells by 5%. 30 Second Cooldown. Alternative: 51 Points invested in affliction tree makes all shadow curses/dots instant cast. (Allows affliction to truly be masters of mobile boss fights, pvp survivability) Demonology: Summon 2 Infernals (Keeps inline with rp) Would be a visual and dps increase. This would not hugely benefit pvp as controlling 2 felpuppies would. It would be possible to even make this a channeled spell whereby you transformed into an ethereal form and simply controlled the two infernals for a limited time. (This idea would need developing) Destro: 21 points invested should provide a passive buff 'ruin' means less restrictions and frees up that spot for a new exciting talent. #I always liked the idea of a soulfire which was channeled like arcane missles but thats just a personal idea# Just my 10cents P
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80 Lock Potsie, 80 Hunt Pycho, 72 Paladin Web ~ I'm a little paladin short and stout: Here is my hammer here is my mount: When trouble comes I scream and shout: Then I bubble and hearthstone out ~ Last edited by Thewebby; October 23, 2009 at 01:29 AM.. |
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