Raid Stacking in WotLK (Blue Post)

[Morganfaey]

I thought this was significant enough to warrant a new post:

As we've suggested a few times, we are currently taking a serious look at all of the various buffs and debuffs classes can bring to parties and especially raids. A few of these changes have shown up in the recent build, and more are on the way. I'll first explain why we're doing this and then what generally we are doing.

Why we think this change is necessary:

1) We are adding a new class in Wrath of the Lich King as well as improving some specs that were previously viewed as inferior for PvE. Yet because the raid size is remaining at 25-players (and we expect many people with raid with 10), it may be hard to fit more people into your raid.
2) We are moving almost every buff to affect the entire raid. There are only a few exceptions, and these tend to be short-term, bursty abilities. Most buffs from Battle Shout to Leader of the Pack will affect the raid.
3) While we are likely to increase the debuff limit on bosses, this is a problem we keep running into. Furthermore, it asks a lot of players to be able to parse bosses with 30, 50, 100 debuffs on them. At some point, we need to stop the madness.
4) Stacking a raid in order to get the right buffs has started to feel a little like a crutch, much like stacking consumables felt not so long ago. Because some of the buffs scale so well and have so much synergy with other classes, you may sometimes feel that you should pass over a really skilled player in order to pick up a buff that will bring more to you group. We'd rather get back to bringing good players or, gasp, even your friends.
5) We want the challenge of the encounter to be the fight itself, not collecting all of the buffs and debuffs you need to succeed. Buffs are fun. We don't want to cut them or nerf them significantly. But we do want to make benefiting from them less of a burden.

Some changes you're going to see:

1) Ease and flexibility in getting all of the major buffs in the group, while still having a few spare slots to take the people you want to take.
2) More parity in which classes can raid. While it's probably not realistic to get 2.5 of every class in a 25-player raid, we can get a lot closer than we are today.
3) More overlap in buffs and debuffs and very few unique buffs. If you can't get player X to bring the melee haste buff, maybe you can get player Y.
4) No two classes should have the same set of buffs. This is to make sure that one class can't completely replace another. If you have two players both bringing melee haste, there is a good chance one of them also brings something else you need. Again, the goal is flexibility.

A few examples:

1) To get a spell damage vulnerability debuff on a boss, you can bring a a warlock for Curse of Elements or a death knight for Ebon Plague. They don't stack, but both classes also bring additional benefits in case you want to run with both. The lock brings Curse of Recklesness, Demonic Pact, Curse of Weakness, Blood Pact and Fel Intelligence (depending on spec). The death knight brings Abomination's Might, Improved Icy Talons, various Auras, and a new Str + Agi buff you haven't seen yet (again depending on spec).
2) To get a 5% melee crit bonus, you can bring a Feral druid for Leader of the Pack or a Fury warrior for Rampage.
3) While having a mana battery feels essential in many cases, you can now bring a Shadow priest, Retribution paladin or Survival hunter to fill the role.
4) You can improve health of the entire raid with Commanding Shout or Blood Pact. You don't need both, so perhaps the warrior can Battle Shout or the lock can bring out another pet instead.

I want to stress that none of this is set in stone. A change like this is going to take some iteration until it feels right. While we are pretty happy with the plan, it is certainly possible that some class or spec is going to be hurt by a change more than we anticipated. We don't want to hurt anyone's viability while soloing, in small groups, or in PvP with this change. We aren't trying to slap anyone in the face -- we're trying to make the game more fun.

The goal is to get more people into raids and to let you bring the people you want. Ultimately, that should benefit everyone. Please try and keep that in mind as you start to see the changes.

And of course, please share your feedback on them with us.


Copied from: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...10738&sid=2000

[El Tanakh]

Hola Czara =)

Where are you girl? Can't find you on any of your trillion alts

[Morganfaey]

The conversation continues through the post and Ghostcrawler seems to be answering alot of questions that pop up. I'll post my opinion later when I actually have time to read it all.



(Tan - I have been kidnapped of the game for a while, the BF made pasta sauce from scratch so I need to go help clean the kitchen and then help eat it )

[iszuel]

The most promising part of the thread thus far:

The goal is to try and boost Affliction, and any other spec that has been traditionally under-represented. We haven't made much of a numbers pass on classes yet -- we're still in the stage of building new talent trees.

Re: Raid stacking in Wrath of the Lich King

[Barkle]

It all looks good. I like the idea that you won't need to bring certain classes/specs to a raid to succeed. It will certainly play havoc with raid makeups, but in the end it will come down to who is the better player, not who has the better buffs. That's a Good Thing (tm).

[Miim]

I am a bit on the fence on this.
Really like that you can pick and choose more, and don't depend on specific classes. The main problem as I have experienced it today is CC. Some heroics, like MGT HC is un-doable without a CC. Giving more classes CC is a fix here, and they seem to be doing that.

The reason im not totally sold on some of this other stuff, is to keep classes unique. By giving all sub-classes (tanks, dps , heal etc) access to the same abilities, ust giving them other names and graphics, really takes away from the uniqueness of the classes. I hope they dont go too far with the generalization.

Same with gear really. I already feel that there are way to many "best" item for slots, so we all end up looking the same.

On another note, I was really hopeing for some "looks" only gear that you put over your stat gear, just to give a unique and cool look. But doesnt seem like they want that.

A bit of a messy post here ^^ Sorry