SSC - Destruction 0/21/40

spaceyoda · June 10, 2008, 03:15 PM

Boss Name: SSC overall and Leo

Report: damage for the nighthttp://wowwebstats.com/bx2axqqe43pqi
Leo (death) Report - http://wowwebstats.com/vbnvk1dwfebls?s=54189-70218

Armory Link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ge&n=Voracious

Group Make-up: I was in the group with a threat reducing totem and I had salvation. No shadow priest. CoS was up. I was responsible for recklessness during the demon phase. We use a pally to tank the demon phase and a druid to tank the human phase.

Information: I am wondering why overall, I can lead the charts but on boss fights, I tend to finish top 3/4.

Theleb · June 10, 2008, 06:02 PM

Your DPS time compared to other classes is quite low on bosses. You generally have higher DPS but less damage done which is a good symptom of low DPS time.

Any reasons you can think of why you wouldn't be "on target" as much as other clases? Specific Rolls? Raid or environment issues?

spaceyoda · June 11, 2008, 12:56 AM

Here is tonight's report.

http://wowwebstats.com/xhist1laibx3q

On the Leo fight, or pretty much any fight. I seem to have to watch my initial aggro so I usually start casting 5 seconds after the tank has the mob. During the Leo fight, during a transition from human to demon and vice versa, I will stop DPS about 5 seconds before the change so my bolts dont hit Leo when he changes form and drops aggro. I always try to act on the side of caution. I can climb up the threat meter very fast. During the Leo fight since we do not have it on farm yet by any means, Iuse my shatter early so i can get in another shatter during the last minute or so.

I need to work on not dying, I die about 3-4 times a night, other than actual raid wipes. I was thinking that I don't have enough crit but more crits would make my dps have more burst and that usually gets me in trouble.

Mexas · June 11, 2008, 02:59 AM

I might be asking a silly question but are you using soulshatter at the right time in the fight?

If you soulshatter to early its often a waste as you'll catch up on threat pretty quick.

edit:

Ive just seen you actually said you used it at the end of the fight. Im not sure about what to do on the Leo fight, its been a long time since i was in SSC.

Chinkmachine · June 11, 2008, 05:22 AM

If you are speced 21/40 there are only a few things that can affect your damage/dps. Low dps is usually a symptom of either poor gear itemization, poor tank threat, or poor luck. Also the two factors that may influence damage that you can control is how close you cut it in terms of threat, and soul shatter timing.

From what I can tell by looking at the WWS report, and from what you said, gear itemization does not seem like an issue. In a fight like leo, there also isn't too much environmental issues to worry about therefore luck can be ruled out.

The remaining cause is threat. My belief is perhaps you are too cautious. Leo does wipe agro alot, and generally it is a good idea to wait for tank threat, however if you notice you have a tranquil air totem and blessing of salvation, it isn't neccessary to always wait 5 seconds to open up. The 5 second rule is a general rule of thumb to prevent agro, but it doesn't always apply to every case. If you have a tank with poor tps(threat per second), then 5 seconds may not be enough, whereas if you have a good tank, 5 seconds may be overkill. If you have the same tank each night, experiment, play around with how early you can open up, because the earlier it is, the better your dps. Because of Leo's many agro wipes, cutting 1 or 2 seconds off the open dps time can increase the shadowbolts you cast by 4 or 5, perhaps more.

Secondly is the issue with soulshatter. Your strategy of soulshattering early may not be the best idea for two reasons. First off much debate has been had for using a destruction potion versus a super mana potion for a warlock. The theorycrafters have concluded that the damage increase by using a super mana potion to you save a global cooldown that would be used on lifetap in order to cast another shadowbolt outweighs the damage increase the extra 120 spell damage and 3% crit for 10second buff from a destruction potion. Since soul shatter uses a global cooldown, and you use it twice in a fight, it can theoretically be said that you are losing at least 120 spell damage and 3% crit for 10 seconds in the fight then if you only had to use soul shatter once.

The other reason is because soul shatter's effectiveness is based upon threat: the more threat you have, the more effective it is. Specifically for Leo, he agro wipes every phase transition, and every whirlwind. Because of this if you soulshattered 50k threat off the first human phase, that has no impact on how much dps you can do in the next human phase. I'm not discouraging soul shattering on this fight, but it is more beneficial to soulshatter on the longest phase and most likely during the middle of that phase to ensure the best use of your soul shatter.

spaceyoda · June 13, 2008, 10:09 AM

fighting Leo again tonight so I will try to increase my DPS uptime and will limit myself to using soulshatter only once. I will try to time the start of my DPS a bit better between phases as well. I will eliminate the use of destruction potions in order to use a super rejuveation potion instead which in theory should enable me to lifetap more.

*** Information added 1387 Minutes and 27 Seconds later... ***

SSC: Leo
HFC: Mags

Report: http://wowwebstats.com/ilro3ds2miu15

Armory Link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ge&n=Voracious

Group Make-up: I was in the caster group which included a shaman for the threat reducing totem and I had salvation on.

Information: I still cannot seem to increase my DPS uptime for SSC. The trash pulls before Leo with the spell reflect shields is part of the problem and I died at least once on the big pulls right before Leo. On three Leo attempts I died early because the instructions were to heal the ranged DPS through the whirlwinds which ended in my death every time and always within the first 15-20 seconds of the Leo encounter, each time it resulted in the eventual wipe of the raid as there was not enough DPS to kill Leo before he enraged. Our elemental shaman died as well and he is also good dps. During the Leo kill I increased my uptime by not trying to cast thru the WWs. I still ran around a lot and my DPS uptime was not all that great but that encounter involves a lot of running completely out of the room in order to avoid the WWs and then running all the way back to get into DPS range. I surpassed the pally tank during the demon phase literally almost every time in threat. Each time was after waiting 4-5 seconds before I began my cast which should have given the tank 7 seconds or so to grab initial aggro but even a small 4-5k crit would put me above although it did not result in my pulling aggro but i was forced to use my soul shatter during the first demon phase and then after that each demon phase I would wait almost 10 seconds into the phase before really opening up.

abar22 · June 13, 2008, 10:53 AM

I know its not on topic but your guild seems to be trying as hard as possible to wipe on Leo. No lock tank and heal through whirlwinds? That's too hectic to get a good read of dps. Why not try tanking him? It's a nice change of pace from dps.
Are ya'll being graded on trash dps? The spell reflect trash is obviously melee friendly so I wouldn't worry at all about your dps on those pulls.

spaceyoda · June 13, 2008, 11:18 AM

The pally tank seems to work fine and I did tank Leo but then I took a bit of a break and the pally got geared up with fire resist and it worked so we stuck with it and I needed the bank space and got rid of my resist gear.

We are still early in our progression of Leo, we have downed him three times and each Leo death still includes at least 4-5 wipes. From my vantage point, the transition phases are still hurting us because people always go to early. Some of the raid members cannot kill their inner demons, usually the healer types. My dps uptime is my concern but in the end I think the encounter mechanics play a large part of the lack of dps uptime.

Marianum · June 13, 2008, 11:23 AM

i kinda agree with abar22 why dont you use a lock tank on leo makethinks so much easier for my guild im the tanking lock and it cost me 100g of respec evry time we kill him but it make that fight so much easier and avoid thosse bleed at all cost the dps phase on his boss is when he is in demon form

Pure Balance · June 13, 2008, 01:40 PM

You don't need to respec to tank leo. I've tanked him as 0/21/40 a few times on our guilds casual runs. Granted you dont have soul link and you don't have the 70 resistance from your felhunter, but if you get put into the MT group you can have a pally put up devo during human and FR during demon. Also if you have a warrior tanking you can get commanding shout and since you're only searing pain spamming it won't hurt to whip out your imp. Nether prot won't be an agro drop like some mobs(like the mobs you can tank in BT shadowcasters and the caster mounted on the dragon) and I honestly don't recall it proc'ing either. Also I use 30 stam food, elixir of mastery, elixir of fort, s3 helm and any other pvp gear you can mix in with the FR gear(it's the crits that really make a bad day as I got a 15k once and had like 500 hp left), and for FR gear I use the neck from that quest, the ring from trials of the naaru, and all of the badge gear. That works fine for me and even if he does get a lucky hit off I've had him get one or two before that took me down as demo

Although I would really recommend a lesser geared group who is on their first tries on him to obviously spec for soul link and MD for it.

June 10, 2008, 03:15 PM	#1 (permalink)
spaceyoda Registered Character Info Voracious 70 Gnome Warlock Blade's Edge US PvE Guild: Blood Bath and Beyond Talent Spec: 0/40/21	SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 *Boss Name:* SSC overall and Leo Report: damage for the nighthttp://wowwebstats.com/bx2axqqe43pqi Leo (death) Report - http://wowwebstats.com/vbnvk1dwfebls?s=54189-70218 Armory Link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ge&n=Voracious Group Make-up: I was in the group with a threat reducing totem and I had salvation. No shadow priest. CoS was up. I was responsible for recklessness during the demon phase. We use a pally to tank the demon phase and a druid to tank the human phase. Information: I am wondering why overall, I can lead the charts but on boss fights, I tend to finish top 3/4.

June 10, 2008, 06:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
Theleb Moderator Character Info Theleb 70 Human Warlock Shadowsong Euro PvE Guild: Original Talent Spec: 0/46/15	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 Your DPS time compared to other classes is quite low on bosses. You generally have higher DPS but less damage done which is a good symptom of low DPS time. Any reasons you can think of why you wouldn't be "on target" as much as other clases? Specific Rolls? Raid or environment issues?

June 11, 2008, 12:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
spaceyoda Registered Character Info Voracious 70 Gnome Warlock Blade's Edge US PvE Guild: Blood Bath and Beyond Talent Spec: 0/40/21	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 Here is tonight's report. http://wowwebstats.com/xhist1laibx3q On the Leo fight, or pretty much any fight. I seem to have to watch my initial aggro so I usually start casting 5 seconds after the tank has the mob. During the Leo fight, during a transition from human to demon and vice versa, I will stop DPS about 5 seconds before the change so my bolts dont hit Leo when he changes form and drops aggro. I always try to act on the side of caution. I can climb up the threat meter very fast. During the Leo fight since we do not have it on farm yet by any means, Iuse my shatter early so i can get in another shatter during the last minute or so. I need to work on not dying, I die about 3-4 times a night, other than actual raid wipes. I was thinking that I don't have enough crit but more crits would make my dps have more burst and that usually gets me in trouble.

June 11, 2008, 02:59 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mexas Lurker Character Info Mexas 70 Human Warlock Dragonblight Euro PvE Guild: Pentaverate	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 I might be asking a silly question but are you using soulshatter at the right time in the fight? If you soulshatter to early its often a waste as you'll catch up on threat pretty quick. edit: Ive just seen you actually said you used it at the end of the fight. Im not sure about what to do on the Leo fight, its been a long time since i was in SSC.

June 11, 2008, 05:22 AM	#5 (permalink)
Chinkmachine Member Character Info Bozoisundead 70 Undead Warlock Lightnings Blade US PvP Guild: Aftermath Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/21/40	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 If you are speced 21/40 there are only a few things that can affect your damage/dps. Low dps is usually a symptom of either poor gear itemization, poor tank threat, or poor luck. Also the two factors that may influence damage that you can control is how close you cut it in terms of threat, and soul shatter timing. From what I can tell by looking at the WWS report, and from what you said, gear itemization does not seem like an issue. In a fight like leo, there also isn't too much environmental issues to worry about therefore luck can be ruled out. The remaining cause is threat. My belief is perhaps you are too cautious. Leo does wipe agro alot, and generally it is a good idea to wait for tank threat, however if you notice you have a tranquil air totem and blessing of salvation, it isn't neccessary to always wait 5 seconds to open up. The 5 second rule is a general rule of thumb to prevent agro, but it doesn't always apply to every case. If you have a tank with poor tps(threat per second), then 5 seconds may not be enough, whereas if you have a good tank, 5 seconds may be overkill. If you have the same tank each night, experiment, play around with how early you can open up, because the earlier it is, the better your dps. Because of Leo's many agro wipes, cutting 1 or 2 seconds off the open dps time can increase the shadowbolts you cast by 4 or 5, perhaps more. Secondly is the issue with soulshatter. Your strategy of soulshattering early may not be the best idea for two reasons. First off much debate has been had for using a destruction potion versus a super mana potion for a warlock. The theorycrafters have concluded that the damage increase by using a super mana potion to you save a global cooldown that would be used on lifetap in order to cast another shadowbolt outweighs the damage increase the extra 120 spell damage and 3% crit for 10second buff from a destruction potion. Since soul shatter uses a global cooldown, and you use it twice in a fight, it can theoretically be said that you are losing at least 120 spell damage and 3% crit for 10 seconds in the fight then if you only had to use soul shatter once. The other reason is because soul shatter's effectiveness is based upon threat: the more threat you have, the more effective it is. Specifically for Leo, he agro wipes every phase transition, and every whirlwind. Because of this if you soulshattered 50k threat off the first human phase, that has no impact on how much dps you can do in the next human phase. I'm not discouraging soul shattering on this fight, but it is more beneficial to soulshatter on the longest phase and most likely during the middle of that phase to ensure the best use of your soul shatter.

June 13, 2008, 10:09 AM	#6 (permalink)
spaceyoda Registered Character Info Voracious 70 Gnome Warlock Blade's Edge US PvE Guild: Blood Bath and Beyond Talent Spec: 0/40/21	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 fighting Leo again tonight so I will try to increase my DPS uptime and will limit myself to using soulshatter only once. I will try to time the start of my DPS a bit better between phases as well. I will eliminate the use of destruction potions in order to use a super rejuveation potion instead which in theory should enable me to lifetap more. * Information added 1387 Minutes and 27 Seconds later... * SSC: Leo HFC: Mags Report: http://wowwebstats.com/ilro3ds2miu15 Armory Link: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...ge&n=Voracious Group Make-up: I was in the caster group which included a shaman for the threat reducing totem and I had salvation on. Information: I still cannot seem to increase my DPS uptime for SSC. The trash pulls before Leo with the spell reflect shields is part of the problem and I died at least once on the big pulls right before Leo. On three Leo attempts I died early because the instructions were to heal the ranged DPS through the whirlwinds which ended in my death every time and always within the first 15-20 seconds of the Leo encounter, each time it resulted in the eventual wipe of the raid as there was not enough DPS to kill Leo before he enraged. Our elemental shaman died as well and he is also good dps. During the Leo kill I increased my uptime by not trying to cast thru the WWs. I still ran around a lot and my DPS uptime was not all that great but that encounter involves a lot of running completely out of the room in order to avoid the WWs and then running all the way back to get into DPS range. I surpassed the pally tank during the demon phase literally almost every time in threat. Each time was after waiting 4-5 seconds before I began my cast which should have given the tank 7 seconds or so to grab initial aggro but even a small 4-5k crit would put me above although it did not result in my pulling aggro but i was forced to use my soul shatter during the first demon phase and then after that each demon phase I would wait almost 10 seconds into the phase before really opening up.

June 13, 2008, 10:53 AM	#7 (permalink)
abar22 Member Character Info Wichkingabar 70 Undead Warlock Anvilmar US PvE Guild: Ascended Ancients Talent Spec: 1/43/17	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 I know its not on topic but your guild seems to be trying as hard as possible to wipe on Leo. No lock tank and heal through whirlwinds? That's too hectic to get a good read of dps. Why not try tanking him? It's a nice change of pace from dps. Are ya'll being graded on trash dps? The spell reflect trash is obviously melee friendly so I wouldn't worry at all about your dps on those pulls.

June 13, 2008, 11:18 AM	#8 (permalink)
spaceyoda Registered Character Info Voracious 70 Gnome Warlock Blade's Edge US PvE Guild: Blood Bath and Beyond Talent Spec: 0/40/21	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 The pally tank seems to work fine and I did tank Leo but then I took a bit of a break and the pally got geared up with fire resist and it worked so we stuck with it and I needed the bank space and got rid of my resist gear. We are still early in our progression of Leo, we have downed him three times and each Leo death still includes at least 4-5 wipes. From my vantage point, the transition phases are still hurting us because people always go to early. Some of the raid members cannot kill their inner demons, usually the healer types. My dps uptime is my concern but in the end I think the encounter mechanics play a large part of the lack of dps uptime.

June 13, 2008, 11:23 AM	#9 (permalink)
Marianum Lurker Character Info Marianum 70 Human Warlock detheroc US PvP Guild: empire	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 i kinda agree with abar22 why dont you use a lock tank on leo makethinks so much easier for my guild im the tanking lock and it cost me 100g of respec evry time we kill him but it make that fight so much easier and avoid thosse bleed at all cost the dps phase on his boss is when he is in demon form

June 13, 2008, 01:40 PM	#10 (permalink)
Pure Balance Member Character Info Purebalance 80 Human Warlock Muradin US PvE Guild: Shadowraven Profile: Blizzard Armory Talent Spec: 0/50/21	Re: SSC - Destruction 0/21/40 You don't need to respec to tank leo. I've tanked him as 0/21/40 a few times on our guilds casual runs. Granted you dont have soul link and you don't have the 70 resistance from your felhunter, but if you get put into the MT group you can have a pally put up devo during human and FR during demon. Also if you have a warrior tanking you can get commanding shout and since you're only searing pain spamming it won't hurt to whip out your imp. Nether prot won't be an agro drop like some mobs(like the mobs you can tank in BT shadowcasters and the caster mounted on the dragon) and I honestly don't recall it proc'ing either. Also I use 30 stam food, elixir of mastery, elixir of fort, s3 helm and any other pvp gear you can mix in with the FR gear(it's the crits that really make a bad day as I got a 15k once and had like 500 hp left), and for FR gear I use the neck from that quest, the ring from trials of the naaru, and all of the badge gear. That works fine for me and even if he does get a lucky hit off I've had him get one or two before that took me down as demo Although I would really recommend a lesser geared group who is on their first tries on him to obviously spec for soul link and MD for it.